SWA Internal Hires?
 

Hello,

I am looking at a job at SWA in an office/analyst type role for which I have pertinent experience and a degree for the job. If I were to get the job, does SWA ever hire pilots internally? Do they ever waive the turbine experience requirements for an internal guy that has the 2500TT hours and all necessary ratings? Just kinda feeling out my options...

Thanks!

Yes, they hire pilots internally (when they are hiring).

As far as I know, the flight requirements are not reduced for internal hires.

Patch

I've never heard of them waiving the turbine PIC requirements.

If your priority is SWA you might be able to get into some contract King-air or citation flying, part time working around your day job. It would take a few years to get the PIC, but I imagine your odds of getting into SWA FO would be very high once you meet the mins.

If your priority is airline flying in general, better not hang your hat on one company...you need to get a professional turbine flying job, 121 preferred.

Just remember, if you do not have a 737 type rating...start saving your money to buy it for the pilot job.

In all honesty, it was the best $8000 I have ever spent in my life!

$92/Hr 2nd year FO pay is a pretty good return on investment.:cool:

Well, I kinda got a lead on a free/no cost 737 type rating...

Or keep in mind that if you were to go somewhere like United, and work in the office, looking forward to hopefully flying the line there, you'd have to "SAVE MUCH MORE" to withstand living on first year pilot wages.

Let's do a little simple math.

First year at WN- $54/hr x 70hrs/month = $3780/month (Gross)
- $3780/month x 12months = $45,360/year.
- $45,360 - $8,000 type rating = $37,360 first
year pay. (Numbers do not include per diem.)

First year at UA- $33/hr x 70 hrs/month = $2310/month (Gross)
- $2310/month x 12 months = $27,720/year.
- $27,720/year - $0 type rating = $27,720 first
year pay. (Numbers do not include per diem.)

Which would your rather "Save" for Contrail?:rolleyes:

Signed,

Vikings Fan

Unfortunately, with no guarantee of a job, there is also this equation:

First year at UA- $33/hr x 70 hrs/month = $2310/month (Gross)
- $2310/month x 12 months = $27,720/year.
- $27,720/year - $8,000 type rating = $19,720 first year pay.

Everyone I know at WN says it was the best money they ever spent too. ;)

"$27,720/year - $8,000 type rating = $19,720 first year pay."

Now that was funny! :D

Last time I checked United typed everyone that went for training....on United's tab.... $27,720-$8000????

Some have to pay for the type to get the job...and if that is what it takes then so be it....

I think what he meant was that people got the type, didn't get hired at SWA and ended up somewhere else, ie. UAL.

yep....to some it is not worth the risk, because it is only a last resort.

How about this...

- $27,720/year + $8,000 type rating = $35,720 total first year value at UAL!!! :D

As a WN commuter (read: not a flight *****), I easily average 110 tfp / month (block anywhere from 70 - 95 hours per month). Well I used to, the last year or so has been a bit more challenging. :confused: As an FO it is easy to work 110 tfp/month; been my standard for the last 4+ years.

Point is $47.70 tfp * 110 * 12 = $63,000 and still had 15 or so days off / month. Second year was much better.

It was the best 8 grand I ever spent, hands down. I hope the tradition continues. :)

A steer back on topic: internals are not the most common but definitely possible. Don't expect a turbine PIC waiver, will not happen, you'll need to have at least the minimums. However, having an employee number gives you HQ access which could help tremendously on getting an interview. Good luck friend.

Got the job offer without the type. Then, paid for the type out of my own pocket and will never regret it. The investment paid for itself first year.

True, but paying for the majority of your training, hoping to get a job, when other employers do that for you, and rationalizing that it's an "investment" can be open to varied interpretations.

and, if you did not pay $8000 for your type rating you would not have been hired....You got a "job offer": if you came up with $8000 for the type you end up on the payroll. That is about as clear and simple as it can be. No need to rationalize.

It's called Pay For Training. As long as guys are willing to do it, this disturbing practice will continue.

This, of course, has always lowered SWAs costs, putting downward pressure on other airlines to do the same. This, in turn, has reduced other pilot unions' negotiating leverage during contract talks.

Well it is nice to see that the same old people are still afflicted with HSW syndrome (Hate Southwest). A thread that started with a simple question about internal hiring has degraded into the same tired argument about the type rating requirement at SWA.

Fact is some did not pay for the type rating. Military utilizing the the new GI bill (payed a third), pilots at failed airlines got it paid for through their unemployment benefits, and some recieved "scholarships." So really the tax payer subsidized many of those type ratings. Others went to other airlines and left for SWA once they were typed in the 737. Frankly this discussion is old and boring.

To those who wish to continue calling those who came to SWA desperate for a job (and therefore their only chance of getting a job at a major is to get a type rating), you are fooling yourself. Most if not all had qualifications that far exceeded what the other majors required. Using terminology such as buying your job, last resort, their only chance at an airline job, etc. is obviously a way to try and disparage others when really some are questioning their own career choices (or a least their career fortunes). Make the best of what you have made and we here at SWA will do the same.:cool:

The Oscar

Exactly. A lot of money to risk, even if it is for a good company.

To continue what Oscar said:

I interviewed with SWA twice before I was hired. First time extremely disappointed. Still think it was a great investment on the type rating. SWA like everyone else hires people, not type ratings. If you show up to a SWA interview thinking that paying for the type sucks, well your rejection letter will suck too.

SWA hires attitude. If it is good and looking for a quality investment, SWA will hire you. Want to waste (spend) $8000, go to Vegas. The difference is wording: invest in your future. Do what it takes, especially if SWA is the only game in town.

You know.....when I graduated high school, I was offered a spot on the line at the local Chrysler plant putting hubcaps on cars. It paid a fortune (compared to restaurants & other jobs that a high school graduate was qualified for). Anyway, two of my friends made the jump and went to work at Chrysler. They thought I was nuts to pass up great pay and benefits to sit in a classroom and go to college. I lived like a rat for the years it took for a Bachelors and Masters degree and then went out and was hired at a great company. I started at the bottom, but quickly made far more than my friends who were still putting hubcaps on cars & I had a good future in store for me as opposed to a dead end job that paid well. Sacrifice and investment paid off!

When I made a career change about 10 years ago, I looked at what it would take (ratings, etc.) to get to the top of the airline pilot ladder. I again lived like a rat flying turboprops for a really marginal 121 carrier in order to get the PIC time necessary to apply for Southwest. It cost me a fortune to work for this carrier (compared to my previous executive career), but it was part of the cost of getting where I wanted to go. Just like the ratings that it took to get the job at the regional, the 737 type rating was just another step that had to be made to get where I wanted to go. Southwest was the only carrier that I targeted, since I knew many friends who had gone to other carriers only to be furloughed, run through the grinder & hating to go to work every day. I wanted something much better.

In my last year at the regional, I was faced with the same choice I had faced many years before. Take the easy route (stay at the regional or try to get on with another carrier that did not require a type rating), or take the hard road and stay at the regional, get my 1000 PIC and buck up for a type rating to make a try at Southwest. Many of my friends at the regional were jumping ship to go to work for other carriers that did not require a type or PIC time. They took the easiest route out of the regionals just to escape. It was a decision that ALL would live to regret as they are all either currently furloughed or facing furlough in the next few months. ALL hate going to work & regret not hanging on until they had the PIC for Southwest.

I was told by a number of Soutwest pilots that I knew that the 1000 Turbine PIC was an absolute minimum for even applying at Southwest (highest minimums in the industry) and that obtaining the type rating was an indicator of how much a pilot wanted to work for Southwest. I didn't have the money for the type, but I begged, borrowed and stole from everywhere to scrape up the money for the type. It was simply another investment that had to be made in order to get the best job in the industry. Same as investing in my previous education and suffering in a crappy job to get where I wanted to go, sacrifice and investing in my future paid off. I was hired by Southwest 5 years ago.

I won't bore anyone with salary figures, but I have a very financially rewarding career at a very stable company. Most importantly, I love going to work, am proud of my airline and believe that I am in the job that i will retire from. No second guessing.....no regrets.

The PIC and the type were just obstacles in the road. Nothing more.

Sacrifice and investment in your career and future are never wasted.

P.S. My friends from high school were furloughed from Chrysler over 10 years ago.

No rationalization at all, it was simply a sound investment. Lets do the math using APC numbers for first year pay at minimum gaurantee: 1) American-$30660 2) Continental-$26784 3) Delta-$42432 4) United-$27720 5) Southwest-$51192. So, even if I would have gotten an offer from the highest paying legacy (which I didn't), I was ahead $8760. If you run the same numbers for the lowest paying it is a difference of $24408. So, I made an incredibly sound investment. You are completely correct that it was only a "job offer" but let me let you in on a little secret, they are all only "job offer's". The offer at Southwest or anywhere else is contigent on you passing the required training curriculum. I feel like I had a large leg up on passing anything required of me since I already had training and a type rating in the aircraft. No rationalizations needed, it was a good investment for me. Also, the type cost me $6000 not $8000 and was tax deductible which added more money in my bank account. It may not make sense for everyone, but for me it was a win win situation.

Like I said, open to varying interpretations.

If you made the career change 10 years ago, spent time at a regional, to get to SW, I'm guessing you got hired at SW in somewhere around 2001-2002 at the earliest? If so, SW doesn't have bragging rights on "highest minimums in the industry". FedEx had that requirement back then as well. If you want to tip the balance with a required type rating, then sure. But just going by flight time, SW can't make that claim.

Also, along the lines of the rest of what you wrote. That same rationale is also used by people that go to GIA. All that money spent is an "investment" in their future. Again, open to varying interpretations.

Dojetdriver,

Might want to read his post again. Or do the math on what 2009 minus five years equals. :rolleyes: (*Disclaimer* - I understand we're into the first few weeks of 2010, but giving him the benefit of the doubt that he left those accuracies out of his "five year" equation.)

Either way, Southwest is industry leading in their contract as well as with management/labor relations. I highly doubt, as some on this board have posted, that it was "their last option".

Vikings Fan

Oops, missed it.

A FACT to consider though, that contract is only industry leading because the legacies took such big hits. Something that most people overlook. And NO, I'm not a SouthWest "hater", I'd go to work there if given the chance. But again, that's a FACT. People can choose to ignore it if they so chose, doesn't change it's validity.

DJD,

I am neither a "WN Kool-aid drinking wanna be", nor am I a "hater of those who "invested in their future, by obtaining a type rating, and are currently employed there." It's a great airline, great people, but wasn't one that I'd seen myself working for, for personal reasons.

I will have to agree to disagree with you sir on your interpretation of why their contract is industry leading. "Yes", the other legacies filed bankruptcy, taking on the "concessionary" contracts that they have now. It is because they (legacies carriers) had "outdated" business models and chose to place their inefficiences and poor management decisions on the backs of labor.

Southwest on the other hand, up until the last few quarters of operational accounting, have been MAKING money. Not because their "employees" make too much, not because their "contract" is industry leading, but because they have a "SOLID & SUSTAINABLE" business plan, with an atmosphere between management and labor relations that prove to make this plan a success.

Good day,

Vikings Fan

You are absolutely correct it is a FACT that legacies took a huge hit, mostly through the bankruptcy process. In other words they did not have a sustainable business model to weather the economic storm that hit and were forced into bankruptcy. Meanwhile, SWA continued to show profitability with their business model and avoided bankruptcy (knock on wood). SWA kept their wages and contract in tact. If you used to make $500 an hour but now make $50 an hour the W-2 still reflects the current pay rate. I'm not trying to knock the pilots at other airlines. Bad management was the root of most of the problems and pilots had nothing to do with it but the results are the same.

Oh boy, where to start;

Yep, agree. Never said otherwise. As far as your choice to not work there, cool. It's all about personal choices, not for me to judge yours.

I'm, sorry sir, but can you tell me where I was a addressing the how and the why in all that? You don't have to lecture me on how and why everybody else came down, it's common knowledge. But the fact remains, everybody else came down, SW DIDN'T go up. You can acknowledge or ignore that FACT.

And that's never been in dispute.

Good day to you too :rolleyes:

DJD,

Disregard the tone taken by my choice of calling you "sir" in a response to your post. I more appropriately should have included an emoticon (i.e. :):D) behind it, to relay the intent of it not being a "lecture" to you or anyone else on this board.

My intentions were to only offer an opinion of why I believe that SWA has an industry leading contract. Anyone can have their own opinion as to why, whether it be because "the other carriers are working in the concessionary contracts of their post-bankruptcy business plans", or because SWA unlike many other companies have retained an "atmosphere" with its labor groups. Like it or not, I would put money on the fact that a "greater percentage of SWA employees (read-agents, flight attendants, and pilots) are still more happy to come to work, than someone working for a legacy carrier who has "drug them through the mud" in bankruptcy filing.

This motivation alone gives the people of SWA and industry leading contract, not because they're paid more, get more time off, but again because of the "atmosphere and work environment" they report to each day. If you question their loyalty, try starting a thread on APC with a "bash" against SWA. See how many responses you get. :eek:

Again, not trying to lecture and not "discounting" your facts of everyone else working in a "concessionary contract". Just offering my opinion as to why I believe SWA has an industry leading contract.....................it is much more than what a person gets paid per hour. (Or per trip in their case.)

Vikings Fan

Note, I had to remove your emoticons, the software wouldn't let me post a reply as there were too many, however;

Fair enough;

Those things are important, you leave them out, bad things happen, very bad things :eek:.

And I accept your opinion as fact, and won't dispute it, I can't, nobody can. But there was a reason in a previous post when I quoted you and I highlighted/bolded contract and left the part after that the same. It was to separate the CBA from the other factors. Nobody can argue that SW has supreme labor relations and a superior business model. However, it seems that on here (and other places) many of those things are starting to wane slightly as SW starts to confront some challenges that they haven't had to deal as of yet. Reference the threads on some of their 1-2-3 hotel rules and how management isn't securing that for them on new/renewed hotel contracts. Although not contractually guaranteed (if I'm not mistaken), it was nice perk/benefit that management negotiated on their crew's behalf. Albeit, on overhead cost they now seem to want to curtail.

Agreed on both your points. It's a shame that the legacies could never grasp this concept. Although it could be argued that Gordon Bethune was trying in his time at the helm of CAL. Relatively speaking of course. A shame that his efforts in that area were practically erased with his follower by "kahnstahntly improving their prahhhduks and shervishes".

Again, I can accept your opinion as fact as to why things are the way they are now. It's just that there were factual events prior that that led to the state of the way things are now.

I'm going to go back to coloring now.

Gentlemen,

Just a few thoughts to put this in context:

It might be a hefty investment to pay for a type-rating, and not the norm by most airline standards. However, consider my current job. I work in accounting/finance/sales. I paid a pretty penny to get an education from Notre Dame, and now I am paying for my own MBA at a school here in MN - to make me MORE competitive than all the other business majors out there. Some companies send their employees to get an MBA on the company dime. Some companies don't pay for education but they do take a real interest in people that went out and got their own because it shows initiative and it sets those people apart.

Bottom line: if you can make yourself competitive by putting in some extra time/money/effort - then do so. I plan on getting a type rating, and if it gets me a job, great. If not, it won't hurt me in any way.

SouthWest is a great model for the niche it serves. It is a low cost carrier for passengers that care about getting to another location at a low price. It is like the Wal-Mart of the airlines. They push costs off on suppliers and prospective pilots in order to maintain low prices. However, try finding a SWA flight to Hong Kong, AMS, or NRT. Ain't going to happen (yet) - just like you won't find Tiffany & Co diamonds in Wal-Mart. The problem the legacies face is that they are trying to be a Wal-Mart and a Sharper Image at the same time. It doesn't work. The legacies need to move out of the identity crisis stage and figure out if they want to fight it out with SWA in the trenches or if they want to target a more business oriented, higher priced clientele that has a lower elasticity of demand. If the legacies could cater to the mid-level exec, you might see demand shift back away from corporate travel and into the airlines, especially with all the pressure to contain costs and stay out of $3,000 an hour flights for execs. Basically, comparing SWA and UAL/DAL/NWA/AA is like comparing apples to oranges - they may both fly airplanes but they fundamentally have a different purpose. Just my 2 cents, but let's not run off on a tangent about paying for training when you find it in many other sectors of the economy. Heck, I even paid for my own EMT/Firefighter classes - but that doesn't make me any less effective as an EMT than a guy that had his FD pay for it. Same training - different check writer.

Brian

What tradition is that? Having to go out and pay for a type rating so you can get a job? Sounds eerily like pay for training to me.. a bane in this industry. But then again, SWA is a different animal. Enjoy.

No, it's not called Pay for Training. Pay for Training is when an airline requires that you pay them for your initial training. Southwest gets no money from new-hires for training. As a matter of fact, they have to train you anyway. The cost difference with making your PC your type ride is negligible. All SWA does is require that you have a 737 type as a standard. It's not Pay for Training.....you're not even close.

As an 11 year SWA flight attendant who quit to try and return as a pilot there someday, I'll reply to the original question.

No, SWA will not waive the 1000 turbine PIC or type rating requirements for internal or former (or anyone) employees. You have to meet the same requirements as anyone off the street.

I was told by everyone who mentored me during my time at SWA that being a current or former employee will help you get the interview, but after that the ball is in your court. That being said, they want to hire back former employees but nothing is guaranteed.

As far as already being an employee and doing and internal placement application for pilot, I'm not sure that this has ever been done.

Also, be careful about having another flying job and working at SWA at the same time. SWA was ok with me working as a flight instructor and other flying jobs, but as soon as it was time to go to a regional I was told it was time to quit Southwest (hardest decision I've ever made). Of course I left on good terms, eligible for rehire and they know exactly why I left.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions.

Look, plain and simple...some have to buy their type to get hired by an airline and others get hired by an airline that will PIC type them once they get hired.....if you have to buy your type to get hired then so be it...if everyone refused to do it...it would stop.

You don't actually have to "buy" a type, you just have to have one. How & where you get it is up to you.

Exactly. It's disturbing that SWA pilots can't see this simple concept.

My employer paid for all of my type ratings. That's the way it should be.

I give up...