I am not suggesting how to pull the flying up. I will leave that up to the union and the company to decide. What I have been stating is that competitive rates of connection flying can be done here at the mainline. As you have stated the costs are getting a lot closer over the past decade. Total cost of the operations are still way off, but pilot costs are getting very close. ASA's work rules are actually really good.

My point is that, we can talk about a staple, a re-interview, etc, but in the end, there needs to be a desire to do this. I beleive that it will start with the 100 seat jet. Putting that airframe at mainline will finally put the next seat class at mainline and not DCI. That is a necessary first step. Once the mudslide has been stopped, rebuilding the shore line can commence.

Comair tried this in 2001.

In response, Delta brought in ACA, Chautauqua, Eagle, ExpressJet, Big Sky, Shuttle America, Freedom, and Pinnacle to make sure it won't happen again.

Since their pay was lower, many of them were awarded Comair aircraft out of the deal, too.

Then in Ch11 Delta had Comair pay and workrules brought back down to "Industry Average". And Comair continues to shrink.

Long story short - that's been attempted, nearly destroyed the airline, and other regionals were quick and eager to backfill.

To add insult to injury, most of the "Mentoring" I've gotten from mainline pilots sounds something like this...

"You seem like a smart guy. But if you ever want a job at Delta, you've got to get away from Comair. Go to Pinnacle or Mesa or someplace where you can upgrade fast. The pay will suck but you've gotta ask yourself, are you and your family willing to pay the price to get to mainline? Cause if you're not, then you might as well stay at Comair."

-Actual conversation with a Delta Captain and training instructor who "works closely with the hiring department".

That is because they were talking to you in the context of the current situation.
What this thread is doing is trying to change the context.

Do RJs hurt the industry? Does a bear crap in the woods? Here's the answer to both: YouTube - YES THEY DO - DOES THE BEAR **** IN THE WOODS

Not entirely factual. ACA inked the DelCon deal in 1999, and started as a DelCon carrier in the late summer of 2000. ACA's pay was higher than COMAIR's at that time. In 2001, ACA got a new contract, making that pay gap even bigger. It also set the bench mark for what COMAIR got. COMAIR didn't strike till after ACA's new CBA. Not a pay issue.

XJT being a DelCon carrier had nothing to do with pilot pay either. First off, DAL needed a place holder on LAX gate space. XJT had planes lying around that needed to be used, and offered a cheap rate. But you don't understand, it had nothing to do with pilot pay. Secondary was those initial 10 CPA airplanes had more range/payload availability than what ASA was using on those routes.

Be more specific. RJ's hurt a pilots career, not necessarily the industry.

I do remember that. AWAC and ACA (Inependance) also had their flying distributed by United when they refused further concessions. ACA, well you know what happened to them. AWAC lost their BAE 146's (the payscale that made it worth staying there) and continued to cut costs to remain competitive. Unfortunately not competitive enough to get new flying after the USAir transition. Hopefully their pilot group keeps holding the line of 50 seat pay although it will probably result in the demise of AWAC when the currenent contract for flying expires.

There is always someone willing to do it cheaper, you have to ask yourself if that person is you. I will not do it cheaper and am exploring other options to support my family while furloughed which will probably be a loooong time.

Until the endless supply of people willing to work for pennies to pay their dues ends, this cycle of undercutting each other will continue. I try to educate every young or new pilot with professional aspirations on the situation and encourage them not to make short sighted choices. Most of this seems to fall on deaf ears because they assume a quick upgrade and movement to the majors will happen for them.

The reality the way I see it is that the management at the major airlines will do everything they can to keep putting flying at the regionals and outsource (through stratigic alliances to foriegn carriers) the international flying. If this is allowed to continue there will be no careers at the majors to move on to, only jobs at the regionals who will continue to undercut each other. Why is this so hard for new entrants to the profession to understand. :confused::confused::confused:

Hate to say this but flying will continue to be outsourced until there is nothing left but a brand name contracted out to other airlines to fly the routes, that's all flying. I have no time frame in mind with this, it could be 20 years or it could be 100 years, but this is what is going to happen. The only way the trend would reverse would be if legislation was created making the mainline carrier liable in some way if a regional carrier screws up.

Ooh trust me, that will never happen. Like I said, a civil case would have to show foreknowledge of safety, procedural, etc, issues prior to the signing of an air service agreement.

Making a law like that would just reshuffle the industry. Maybe good, but it would not work in its current arrangement. Duty rigs along stand to change the viability of regional airlines.

Is that American Eagle in your comment, Eagle only feeds American..

Ask your 3 year FO's what they make and how many days off they are getting. You're what % at ASA? I'm in the bottom 10% and my pay is more and QOL is almost equivalent of yours.


Scope of operation- worldwide flying. Rotations where some are built like you do all the way to 12 day international trips and everything in between. You pick what you like.

VERY different companies.

You're incorrect.

Eagle is a code share partner for Delta out of LAX.

Codeshare Partners

I should learn to NFTT, but guys like Breiling will figure it out when it's too late...:rolleyes:

ASA's current furloughs don't affect him. Air Mekong won't affect him. That Skywest is grossly overstaffed won't affect him. That there will be a contractual prorate reset for the contracted flying he operates won't affect him (too quickly). That the number of ASA contracted DCI aircraft operating is projected to decline from 141 to 16 over the next 10 years won't affect him (too quickly).

It is all about him...:p

True, when that was announced years ago, ACA was hoping to take advantage of that since there were already a DelCon carrier, and the FRJ would have been a perfect fit for most of that flying. But again, not a pilot pay issue what so ever.

That is what the 10K states. 16 jets in 2019 (off the top of my head)

I agree and the way DCI is operated and run will change greatly in the next few years. When I saw what I saw, it made no sense to stay at any seniority.

Having a paycheck from the guys selling the ticket means a lot.

I don't know it that list is totally correct. I haven't heard of Delta/Eagle codeshare from anywhere.

We have code share with AMR Eagle out in LAX for about 10 years.

You got to think who was it that rubbed the bottle. After all, the mainline carriers didn't do this unilaterally it was agreed upon by the pilots.

"I don't care, as long as I keep my pay, QOL and seat" That is what created the regionals:rolleyes:

In an effort to protect the FAE for the pensions. That is now gone for most airlines.

Aight. Is that a Delta/Eagle thingy or Skywest/Eagle?

DAL/Eagle.

DAL contracted with Eagle out there many moons ago. It was a short term answer to some short haul stuff out there they did not want to do.

Ohhh I see...cool bro.

BINGO!!!

How many McDonalds are owned and operated by McDonalds???

How many Holiday Inn's are owned and operated by Holiday Inn???

Crandall said it years ago that he would love to run American as a vitual airline with very few "American" employees.

It's all in the brand name.

And it's a complete PITA for the passengers as far as the transfer from DAL to AE goes. I KNOW, they shouldn't book flights with close connections, etc. But the set up is a complete disaster.

Concur on the poor service. I'm a Delta frequent flyer, and am supposed to get 70 pounds of bags for free. It's a big deal, because I'm hauling exactly 70 pounds, one bag a 50 pound oversize golf hard case. They made it clear that it wasn't what the "American" rules would allow.

American Eagle, out of San Diego, decided to charge me some outlandish amount of money for the short haul to LAX, where I connected with Delta.

Their response.... get Delta to refund you the money, which they did.

It is the easiest way to keep resetting labor costs. As a manager it is pure genius. That is why I see these air alliances as the next outsourcer. All of a sudden they will code the flying and airlines like AMR, DAL and CAL will become the third party operator. It is the end game in my opinion.

If wages go with this final step, people will bail on this profession. Got my parachute packed and strapped.

(On a side note don't you work for the airline that has yet to outsource? Doesn't that worry you?)

In reference to McDonald's It is a franchise, that provides the product for the third party to heat up. The main company still sets pay, and bennies as well as many other things.

I do not argue that. It is a short term fix that has become a long term deal. It has allowed DAL access to communities it has not served.

I wonder how long that agreement is for? If I'm not mistaken, did they move all the SAAB's out of LAX last year?

There was an ACTUAL DelCon carrier in LAX that could go to tall the places AE does with their planes with less of an ordeal for the customers.

Once again, it was due to the desire to not dilute a market that has not pricing power. (how I was told)

I'm sure that that is the first and foremost reason. I wouldn't doubt that trailing reason would be that AA and has a rather firm and solidified RJ/regional operation in LAX. Where DAL has proven to be rather fickle there.

The old I got mine and you'll get yours but yours will not be as good as mine routine .
BTW what are the chances of an AE pilot moving up to AA ?
Comair moving up to DAL ?

I like the McDonalds analogy, the only problem, when your local store kills someone with nuclear coffee, McDonalds national is also held responsible. If Continental could be sued and pay a heavy penalty for the Colgan accident, would they self regulate?
Brand recognition is only good as long as you protect the brand. If people begin to associate US Airways with cramped little commuters and a poor safety record, they'll choose Southwest.
This is the principle of a franchise. If the product is not consistent, it looses the benefit to franchise.