Do RJ's hurt Major Airlines?
 

Do RJs hurt the major airlines?

If you answered yes...then please answer this...

1. Why don't you guys try to get all the jets at mainline?

2. Refuse to hire RJ pilots?

3. Start hiring T-Prop and 135 guys instead of all the former 250 hour RJ wonder wings?

4. Require 1,000 hours of PIC time in airplanes as a CFI or 135 single pilot? (This should make the RJ operators force pay up to attract more experienced pilots meaning they couldnt just out cheap the majors. Nobody would want to run straight to an RJ if you couldnt go to the majors? It might put things in perspective, maybe?)

Maybe these ideas wouldn't work but I just wanna know what you all think.

I agree with number 4) 1000 pic as CFI or 135 and also 3.
1 is out of the pilot control.
2 is to broad.
Will it help yes but when airlines need to put buts in seats they will take any warm body.

OO OO I know the answer!

YES, it's been beat to death ad nauseum

They can try, and it would be nice if they could succeed. But that cat was let out of the bag long, long ago. With terrible consequences. The issue is now so deep rooted that it's it's hard to fix.

Seriously? You'd also have to define "rj". The DC-9/MD-80 (as examples) are nothing but "RJ's". And before you (or anybody else flames), this has been beat to death as well. They are aircraft designed to operate on short segments where a larger aircraft simply won't work, OR to supplement service already provided by larger aircraft. Just like EJET's, CRJ's, and ERJ's.

Now let's delve deeper. What about the military pilot that maybe got a regional job because the market sucked (or whatever other reason) and is now looking to move on, should he be black listed now because he flew an RJ? What about the furloughed legacy pilot that may have gone to a regional to keep a paycheck coming in, and now sees fit to apply at a carrier other than were he came from, should he be blacklisted as well because he now too also had the stench of the RJ on him?

Again, seriously? Again, you need a definition here. There are PLENTY of 135 outfits that hire "250 hour wonder wings" as SIC simply because meat in the seat is required.

1000 hrs CFI time is good time, 135 SP is better time. But how does that exactly compare to the an "rj" pilot with 1000+ PIC, toss in something like an LCA letter/sim instructor experience. Which candidate has experience that is more applicable to what the job entails at a "major" airline? What about pay at various 135 operators? Some are content to make a career at certain outfits. Many 135 outfits don't pay squat.

Yes, they do.

1. That ship sailed a looong time ago. Nothing is impossible but thats pretty close.

2. Pilots don't hire pilots, management does.

3. See above.

4. This idea might be plausible in theory because manangement only acts when there is a cost benefit (except when it comes to their bonuses). But back to the point, this would only work if everyone did it and that wouldn't happen.

Not going to touch this. Not yet......

Actually, no, RJs do not hurt the major airline. RJs are necessary to carry passengers from small/medium spoke cities to the hubs. If it weren't for RJs small/medium communities that don't have the traffic to fill larger jets would be negatively impacted. Perhaps the question should be... with the current industry set-up do RJs hurt the PILOT profession? After all, we all do the same thing. Part of the problem is that WE foster the division. If that was the question... then YES. If the RJ was operated at mainline, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Pandora is out of her box now and it'll take lots of work and sacrifice to get her back in and get this mess under control. Who's going to blink first?

Oh come on, your perspective would be valuable here. And I'd agree with the other guy, the title should be "do RJ's hurt major airline pilots, as well careers of pilots hoping to become major airline pilots".

In some ways they might (customer annoyance, possible (unproven) higher accident risk).

Do they hurt major airline PILOTS? Of course, that's their whole purpose.

It would cost negotiating capital (a whole lot of it now that the horse is out of the barn)

Why didn't they do it in the first place? I can't figure that one out for the life of me.

Very few people hold that sentiment, it's not really the RJ pilot's fault. Also who would you hire? ASEL CFI's? Military UAV pilots? The civilian career path is RJ's now, and military rated aviators with REAL airplane experience are going to scarcer as time goes by....

The government will have to force the airlines to do that...I think most of us are in favor.

Most of us are really hoping that the bills in congress which would require an ATP in both seats is going to pass. This is realistic...but write your congressman.

RJ's have allowed people who have no business being anywhere near an airplane to have full careers as airline pilots. That is the RJ's legacy.........

Sadly, although not to the same extent, the hiring practices at some major/legacy have done the SAME thing. And believe it or not, many of them didn't have ANY "RJ" time what so ever.

It's not really the RJ thats hurting the majors. It's marketing that does it. Taking 4 mainline flights and turning it into 10 SMALLER AIRCRAFT flights per day. Notice I said smaller a/c....not jet. If the majors throw a bunch of turboprops on a run it will still have the same affect. We all know what happens when you try to squeeze too many airplanes into congested airspace at a crowded airport.

Passengers wanted turboprops instead of pistons. They got them and complained. Passengers wanted jets instead of turboprops. We gave them a few small jets. Now they wanted frequency. We gave them lots of small jets and frequency. Now they complain about delayed flights and small jets. You just can't put a 777 on every leg. Delta tried that already between Orlando and Atlanta. You only get 777's if you complain enough and you have oil....Lagos.

When I travel as a passenger I love RJ's and turboprops on flights between smaller cities and shorter legs. I love checking my bag planeside and getting it back. Those who don't like it are the dumb ones who stand up first and run outside in the weather. If your the last one off your bag is right there waiting for you. I do not like smaller a/c on runs between major cities or long flights. Longer distance for me means more bags and I need a real overhead bin. Inflight entertainment helps with the little guy. Food for sale helps when I don't have time to meal plan.

disclaimer - without 9 years of t-props and rj's I wouldn't be at a mainline carrier to complain about rj's.:D:D

Major Airlines have been trying to damage the careers of their pilots purely for spite. They ground their fleets while continuing to pay leases, and then pay double casm's just to fulfill their number one objective; outrage pilots.
It has nothing to do with abliene tx inablity to support a 747 to denver, it is just a personality war. Not related to economics, nothing to see here, move along.

I think I have expressed my opinion.

The issue is in reality, deregulation., It caused a need for hub and spoke. That means many things.

9-11 and the SWA effect caused another nail in the coffin.

RJ's are a Band Aid. They allow Air Lines to maintain markets share. Problem is that the CASM was all but unworkable at mainline. Pre CH11 the CASM would have been double at mainline.

Going in to the CH11 era ALPA and other Union Houses misidentified the threat of how scope changes were going to totally change the medium and short haul domestic network. Prior to CH 11 many airlines had backstops based on financial data. As the airlines keep going down a poor financial road, some of it by design, these backstops were met and the RJ boom ensued.

CH11 arrived at many airlines, and other did everything to avoid it. With the threat of voiding labor contracts the unions went with a known in an uncharted world by allowing large RJ's.

We are where we are now.

The fuel run up showed the vulnerabilities of this type of plan. 50 seat jets are generally not a viable option for many airlines. Contracts dictate many floors so we will see them around until said contracts and leases expire.

70-76 seat jets are slightly better, and offer a premium product on some carriers. Still not mainline but dispatch rates are decent.

When it comes to the companies and their labor management, the RJ's, 9-11, CH11, and maybe an ultimate financial meltdown (100 seat) have proven to be perfect storm after perfect storm.
Problem for airlines:
Visibility. The colgan crash will continue to show failures in the model. Major airlines cannot be held liable for a third parties mistakes, but if lawyers can connect the dots on prior performance before a contract was signed, there many be some issues for the mainline carriers and their payouts.
Result:
reduce liability and it will swing the other way. Money talks......

ALPA and other Associations:

We sold it, we can argue what ifs but it is water already over the dam. We have to deal with it. Many of us have many different solutions or ideas on how to start a fix. We need to look at all of em.
Where we will go from here:
-Problem with "Just do it":
The pilots at mainline gave up scope without a total understanding of what they were doing. That will no longer float as we all can see the effects of shortsightedness. Some of it was avoidable some not. Again, water under the bridge.
The problem is along with section one small jet scope changes we saw pay cut by 40,50%+, pensions gone, medical destroyed, other bennies like night override, international override, trip and duty rigs et al destroyed. Many of the guys in the mainline cockpits want this back too.
Many want this back without a scope sale and are happy to keep the line where it is. There is a strong argument that economics and slot constraints will take care of a lot of the RJ flying over the next decade.

The simple fact is that if pay can go up many do not want to recapture scope.Many see that SJS is acceptable if it slides no more. 100 seat jets are a target, but now pilots have the knowledge, and giving that or a company taking it in 1113C will have unintended consequences. Many labor relations professionals will agree. The age if Mainline Pilot innocence is over.

We can argue that until the ends of the earth the benefits of unity and how that would work going forward, and many will and have. That will take a bigger grass roots effort, an effort between mainline and RJ guys and gals.

The simple fact is that we hope the government solves our issues but many need to realize that those with money and power will keep their money and power to influence the decision and rule making. The new pilot min standards appear to be eye wash. Ab Inito programs will still be able to pump out pilots at 300 hrs. (less if it is part 142) Nothing will change by this. We need education, economics, regulation and unity to all play a part in this.

I know that not one single person has all the answers. It takes a industry wide effort of all professional pilots to change the direction we have been steering.

There are options about pay at mainline for these jets, but that should be another post!

(Not sure if this is what you were looking for. I just kind of started typing)

Welp, that just about sums it up......:p

RJ's? Nope

Outsourcing? Hell yes

We have a winner!

I was going to ignore it but......darn


2% of the Regional pilots got hired with less than 1000 hours and you are insulting all Regional pilots and that is more than 15 thousend pilots....

The interview at the Regional level is not the same at every company. Some companies have extensive testing and evaluation and requested 1000+ hours all the time.

For most Regional pilots it took as much work and time to get to a Regional as it use to take to get to a legacy. They are at a Regional because legacy did everything they could not to hire or maybe you have not noticed that in the last few years there has been no positive movement at the legacys. The few that got hired 2006-2008 at the legacys went there mostly from Regionals and flew RJs and those guys are today furloughs.

To get from right seat to the left one takes 15 to 20 years at most legacy airlines.

If a pilot has done 135 cargo or some other type of flying for some years and wants to fly 121 jet operation the idea of staying in the right seat for the rest of the career is maybe not what that pilot wants....

The legacy Airlines changed the whole industry and invented the Regional Companies by offering Small companies the flying and Airplanes as their own pilots did not want to do it. To blaim RJ pilots is just stupid.

What about the guys on laptops while flying larger jets and the guys landing on taxi-ways......,do they belong in the airlines?

If you even are a pilot, are you 100% sure you should be or belong in an airline? maybe some people that knows you thinks different.......:cool:

And here we go...

There are a lot of guys that got through the less stringent screening that would never be able to pass the higher level of selection at a legacy. It generally catches up with them through violations that pin them at their outsourced company, anyways.

The most extensive regional interview is easier than the easiest legacy interview (I dont know about the nationals).

The laptop and taxiway guys' issue has been extensively hashed out... no need to revisit it.



Outsourcing blows.... it has hurt this career just about beyond repair. Would you rather sit the rest of your career in the "9" jumpseat in an outsourced operation? Or actually not depend on your company being the lowest bidder (with goodness knows what corners they cut to be able to be that bdder)?

HA, I never said I wasn't one of the people I was referring to. My post above is mostly a joke though, I wondered how people would respond to it.

[quote=80ktsClamp;762519]And here we go...

There are a lot of guys that got through the less stringent screening that would never be able to pass the higher level of selection at a legacy. It generally catches up with them through violations that pin them at their outsourced company, anyways.

The most extensive regional interview is easier than the easiest legacy interview (I dont know about the nationals).

The laptop and taxiway guys' issue has been extensively hashed out... no need to revisit it.
Really?

jetBlue is a legacy and they only have personal talks during interview, no testing what so ever.........
I heard from many going to AirTran and Delta from Skywest that the interview was a joke comparing to what they expected.

Last time I jumpseated on Delta the FO had flown for Colgan before and was never a PIC at Colgan. That pilot went from CFI to Colgan and then to Delta in two years. Pretty amazing eh?

I also know of one guy getting hire by NW airlines at 700 hours in 2007.

When it comes to issues happening at the legacys then it is always "the issue has been extensively hashed out" but insulting Regional pilots that fly RJs, ERJ etc is never ending........

give it up,
The pilots at the legacys are no super pilots at all, believe me.

there are terrible and good pilots at all levels and to insult a whole group is wrong.

I have Jumpseated hundreds of times with legacys and seen some terrible examples there too

The legacy outsources all flying as they do not want to pay more people the salaries they are paying their pilots.

Only legacy management controls the Regional and the entire 121 industry. To blaim Regional pilots for that is wrong.

I agree with this, and am going to take it a step further...

Regional carriers subsidize the high payscales of mainline partners. In order to recapture RJ flying the mainline carriers would have to take a huge paycut.

Good read on the topic:
Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines - Articles - US Pilot Unions? Dirty LittleSecrets

I thought mainline already took a huge paycut.

In order for mainline to recapture outsourced flying, RJ pilots must start demanding better pay and contracts so their flying becomes too expensive and it's better for mainline to do it in house. This benefits regional pilots by rasing their current rates and eventually opening up more mainline jobs.

Unfortunately it means a pilot group must be willing to take a contract negotiation to a strike and possibly shutdown their regional airline.

True, and it has swung both directions with the varying supply/demand cycles that have occurred.

In general, yes, but you can't make that general blanket statement. Pre 9/11, COMAIR's interview process was pretty extensive. I'd even go so far as to say more extensive than two separate legacies that hired up until recently as far as the overall amount of knowledge that was required. Barring all the TMAAT stuff. Just sayin'


Something to keep in mind though, a few years ago the competition at JB was pretty stiff. Lots of qualified guys wanting to get on there. Many of the threads on this board used to be dominated with JB hiring. They also used to have a rather extensive/lengthy 3 phase hiring process where guys waited weeks and sometimes months to see if they'd moved on from one phase to the next. Also, 1000 PIC wasn't jack as far as trying to get a call there goes.

Now, fast forward to the last time they had a hiring cycle. No more lengthy 3 phase process, and lot's of guys getting the nod without 1000 PIC, I personally know 3 of them.

The simple fact is that we want the flying back, and to get it back the reality is we need to accept the economics.

Resetting seniority is a huge part of this for companies. It is and was part of the plan.

I think that airlines would get better candidates if they did start out making regional wages but had a direct line to the 777A seat.

Just sayin.....

The military argument is getting smaller and smaller as they will be producing less pilots.

I see what you're saying, but a case in point that may not really reflect that as a 100% valid statement.

The flow through between COEX and CAL. That flow through in essence had a "direct line" to a mainline/widebody seat. Although it went through various evolutions over time as far as boxes that had to be checked off before moving on to that mainline job.

But saying that that process would get better candidates is not a fail safe. Sure, everybody can rant on that the when you were hired at COEX you were hired by CAL, your paycheck said CAL, etc. And mid 90's when the competition was more extensive, sure the candidate was more qualified. But when the FT was in effect and the market forces/supply demand kicked in pre 9/11, having that FT agreement and a "direct line" to mainline had NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER on the overall qualification of the candidate.

Of course, all this got nixed in the spinoff/IPO, as well as the back dating of FT/Schindler's list/pref interview process.

But it serves as a case in point that what you're saying will not guarantee a better candidate.

Sometimes people have their head in the sand so far it's not even worth it. JoeMerchant twin alert here...



FYI- jetblue isn't a legacy.

I don't think there will be any 100% valid statements on this thread. Too many niches (or larger) that wouldn't fit the mold of any blanket statement.


I think what acl was getting at was having you get hired into a CRJ or SF34 and have that be the end run all the way to 777.

Flow throughs have rarely worked over time... I would much prefer one brand, one list. Get rid of this outsourcing crap.

[QUOTE=CaptainTeezy;762430]Do RJs hurt the major airlines?

/QUOTE]

I was hired 23 years ago at the only major without a B-Scale. We are now Delta.

To answer your question; RJs are the new B-Scale. The majors need them because there is no B-Scale. It was said 20 years ago that we would never get rid of the B-scale, but we did. It was replaced with the RJ. What will we do to get rid of the RJ? Oh I know, bring the RJs under our contract at a B-Scale rate....................................it is what it is:cool:

[QUOTE=HermannGraf;762527][
jetBlue is a legacy

Huhhh????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????:p

This is the only viable solution to the goat screw currently in place. There is no good reason mainline can't operate BE1900 and up at reasonalble rates. Sure the rates won't be great but at least there is room to move up in a career path without starting over at the bottom of a list several times. Also experience can be more eaisily passed down to newer/younger pilots.

We don't need to debate that. But can you truthfully argue that their interview process at one time was NEVER a rather difficult process to get through? Regardless of whether or not their a "national/LCC' or a "major legacy", how much they get paid, or if many of the candidates trying to get hired there at one time were furloughed from legacy carriers. Again, it's all about supply and demand. There was a time at UAL where the acceptance rate was roughly 1 in 12 the first time around. If somebody was lucky enough to be called for a second interview, that number went to roughly 1 in 2 getting the nod. When they hired this most recent time, I'd hardly say that was the stats.

On more levels then one, true. I was simply debating that "getting hired with the direct line to a mainline job is a better will get a better candidate" line of reasoning simply isn't valid. I'm not talking about the goods/bads of how it's affected pilots on the way up/down, ONLY the quality of the candidate. And like I said, COEX/CAL is a perfect example.

Ego got in the way of that last time, and that was over a jet powered aircraft. What makes you think it would be any different this time?

Sadly, we pilots tend to have some short memories when it comes to repeating mistakes sometimes.

Talking about Jet Blue, Delta, AMR, UAUA et al and their mins is good, because they have changed as the candidates have changed.

15 years ago who would have had 1000 hrs PIC 121. Not many. Now it is just another notch. It by design keeps the guys moving off the top and the overall cost low.

Some majors do not care about that some do. It is another requirements, and RJ's have allowed it to be embraced by pilots. Why? because we have had to.

What needs to be looked at is the regional hiring practices. Regional carriers really do not want to hire 300 hr wonders, but given where this industry is at they are trying to mitigate risk to their bottom line. Ab Inito generally does that to some extent, but not to the level it needs to.
See what regionals and that whole side of the industry have introduced a pilot to airlines passengers much earlier in their careers. It has made a Major Airline hires have 7-15 years (a ton more experience) than they used to have.
It is a interesting dynamic. Due to the Deregulation and Hub and Spoke economics the bars have been raised for major airline pilots and lowered for regional airline pilots. It is taking 10-20 years to see a left seat at a major and two to three at a regional. The regionals are now stagnating and the experience is catching up with the growth. This is not across the board, but in general. It will reverse itself again as we near the great retirement era later this decade. In effect the airlines are going to once again need to lower their barrier for entry to staff their needs.

A fix is costly, it is costly to the airlines, pilots, and the regulators. Pay needs to go up to attract the right profile. That is not happening today and the qualified pool is getting smaller and smaller. The cost of tickets needs to go up. That will cause less travel, which may be a good thing.

The end problem is we are businesses that assumes safety is an given. It is not. Safety needs to start before a pilot candidate flies their first airplane. Attraction is the best form. Pilots would deal with a few years of horrible wages as they quickly moved on to majors and were well in to six figures in a few years. That is no longer the case. 15 years in to this industry and six figures is a just barely. For ppl that have the brains and ability there are better careers with better prospects.

So how do we do it?
First, this is not a regional pilot mistake or issue, this is not a mainline pilot mistake or issue. This is an industry wide issue that the regulators, airlines and unions have all played a part it. We are seeing cracks now. Colgan is a good example, but in less than 10 years we will see epic failure.

Raising the barrier to a regional job is a good first step, but it needs to be more than just a different certificate. It needs to be different and restructured primary flight training. It needs to edge away from less airplane time to more stick time, more situational training. Getting people from private to airline pilot in 12 months has got to stop. There is safety in time. Even a mandatory 12 month stint as a CFI would be a start.
We need to as pilots take on mentoring. I think our union should put tools in place to get pilots to go to the universities etc and talk to prospective pilots. We should look at having a board certification like doctors. It is one more step. That should go hand in hand with regional mentoring.
There is a ton of legal red tape in those suggestions, but the point is simple. It is not my fault or your fault. It is the fault of burning the candle at both ends in the sake of promotion and viability of the industry. We all need to look at where this is headed, and serve up a good cup of self serving survivorship. As they say a bad safety record is not good for business. It is not good for pilots, and it is not good for Joe Public. We need to return to self policing, mentoring and a logical and predictable flow to better paying jobs.

Lets worry about how when we finally quit pointing fingers and assigning blame. Lets just decide to take ownership of the issues and quit the finger pointing. Solve the problem.

You misunderstood the thrust of what I was saying.

Direct line, do not reset seniority.

Many ppl do not want those low paying "RJ" jobs at mainline. We would not do that. Blah blah blah.

You know what, IMHO getting those seats on the same seniority list and allowing people a direct line, not a flow, but a known that yep, I am a DAL pilot making X but I know that I am qualified to fly the 777A when my seniority allows because I am a Delta Pilot.

What doing this does, is allows the airlines to be uber stringent in their hiring. No flows, no getting the crap that has snuck through, but making a pilot stand on their head, shoot shark **** up their nose, crazy antics to make sure the pilot is their pilot. The entry level job would not being going to 300 hr 21 year old pilots. It would be going to pilots that had the abilities and experience that a mainline carrier would want.

I know many ppl do not like this notion, but by in large it allows the cookie to get bigger, the "prize" more attainable and will attract the "right stuff" to this industry. All of these pit falls that are in place do save money, and reset seniority. For a pilot they make it a distant maybe to go from RJ pilot to mainline pilot.

Make sense.

It shouldn't be a matter of EGO any more. It should be company culture, it's XYZ brand we own the airplanes and keep all flying in house. This would make quality of service much easier to manage and eleminate layers or redundant management at the multiple subcontractors currently in place. Unfortunately it would require both management and labor to work together with reasonable expectations on both sides. A BE1900 driver should be an entry level position with room to grow within a company.

It would also require management that actually wants to run an airline.

[QUOTE=reddog25;762559]It is ugly but it is a start to a solution.

True, but how big were the "regional" airlines 15 years ago? Not very compared to today. Take the biggest ones out there, XJT/ASA/SKW/RAH, paled in comparison to what they are today. Now, there are way more qualified candidates than in the past. But the question is, with the way this had evolved, not ALL are willing to apply for the legacy job.

True, like you said, it will reverse. But remember, there were guys that on the panel/FO seat at a legacy in the past for just as much time.

Again, agree. But just like we're talking about, market forces and supply/demand have driven this stuff in the past. They can regulate the crap entry requirements, but when a lot of factors start to catch up again, it'll create a problem.

Everything else I omitted I agree with.

I didn't misunderstand anything. The CAL FT wasn't a seniority reset, and that was my example was specific to. As well as the argument that it will guaranty that mainline job.

I know that, you know that. But tell that to the senior/widebody CA's that have succumb to that all to often affliction of "I've got mine, everything else is the junior guy's problem". Like I said, we pilots have short memories.

True, but in this climate, those managements are in the minority, and it won't change any time soon.

Those WB guys have every right to demand their career back. To them their career is pay and retirement. To me it is progression, pay, retirement.

It is the unions jobs to prioritize the order of the group, and the sad fact is most are happy to keep the scope line where it is. I think that on many levels they are correct. Pay needs to be restored. I feel for them too as my pay sux as well.

I want it all, but getting it is another story.

[QUOTE=acl65pilot;762597]It is the unions jobs to prioritize the order of the group, and the sad fact is most are happy to keep the scope line where it is./quote]

But sadly, it's not till recently that that sentiment has been realized. And yep, when the BK's were happening it was hard to hold on to. In the pre 9/11 "HJS" syndrome that affected some mainline carriers, the scope relaxation that occurred NEVER should have.

So do I, but in the relatively brief amount time you and I have been in this game, there's only been a short period where pilots "had it all" so to speak.