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Can't we all just get along ...
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Originally Posted by AAflyer
(Post 764790)
Interesting debate this has turned into. I am sure you will find many opinions on both sides of the fence. However the example of the mortgage and braces is a very poor one.
If the only way you can make your mortgage payment and put braces on your kids teeth is to pick up open time and max out then "you" are living way beyond your means. We have seen first hand what happens to people living beyond their means this past couple years. AAflyer As this thread continues, it's black-n-white. What is there to debate?? If you have people on furlough (as CAL does) and you 'opt' to fly outside of your award (increase/padding your month block using OT), your screwing those who are out on the street. AGAIN, the OT trip "YOU" pick up to pay for your "3rd toy", is the trip that could be covered by the furloughed guy who is scraping up enough cash to keep his kids in clothes. Put as much makeup as you want on your bottomless defense to say otherwise, in the end, your excuse for your actions in the above mentioned case does not hold water...Period. On a lighter note AA, have you finished IOE yet on the new ride?? Hope all is well in the new "NG" world!! SC |
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
(Post 764816)
Well put AA.....have to agree with you on the above take.
As this thread continues, it's black-n-white. What is there to debate?? If you have people on furlough (as CAL does) and you 'opt' to fly outside of your award (increase/padding your month block using OT), your screwing those who are out on the street. AGAIN, the OT trip "YOU" pick up to pay for your "3rd toy", is the trip that could be covered by the furloughed guy who is scraping up enough cash to keep his kids in clothes. Put as much makeup as you want on your bottomless defense to say otherwise, in the end, your excuse for your actions in the above mentioned case does not hold water...Period. On a lighter note AA, have you finished IOE yet on the new ride?? Hope all is well in the new "NG" world!! SC Jut finished IOE, and off to work tomorrow. Over a month out of the cockpit and I get a little irritable.. Fun airplane. I miss the 757/767, however I am diggin my seniority on this bird. There is a lot to say about QOL. It is funny a few guys have asked me, why I down bid, and how can I afford the paycut. Well it only $400 a month difference, and as in the example above, my wife and I live well below our means. Hope you are well, looking forward to maybe seeing you on the jumpseat. Cheers, AA |
Originally Posted by AAflyer
(Post 764790)
Interesting debate this has turned into. I am sure you will find many opinions on both sides of the fence. However the example of the mortgage and braces is a very poor one.
If the only way you can make your mortgage payment and put braces on your kids teeth is to pick up open time and max out then "you" are living way beyond your means. We have seen first hand what happens to people living beyond their means this past couple years. AAflyer Have a wonderful day. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 765043)
My example is probably more common than you think. I don't know about you, but there are many guys over here that took a 46% paycut. What if those guys bought their houses when they upgrades to captain at those wonderful rates that we had for a few months? What if they then not only took that 46% paycut, but then took an additional cut when they were downgraded? What would you expect them to be doing to make their personal ends meet? I see LOTS of guys that are living beyond their means. Altruism is a noble concept, but it is not always practical for everybody. This argument is really beginning to drive my bloodpressure, because it appears there is a group that can only see one side of the issue. Like I said, altruism is a wonderful thing if it can be applied, but Oscar and Milpilot are advocating socialism and thuggery. I'm done with this... feel free to call me all the names you want, but while you do, be advised that only one of us has acknowledged that he can see both sides of this issue.
Have a wonderful day. I have and will not call you anything. Look, when we took our paycuts I also took a 38% paycut. I went from old 767 payrates to MD-80 FO BK style pay rates. And guys who went from Captain to FO took in some cases a 50% cut. Lastly the furloughs to 100%. What I am asking you to do and others is be responsible for your choices. It is NOT is a "RIGHT" to get the Captains house when you make Captain, and over indulge when your (not you specifically) income was high, but many put themselves in the predicament they are in now. Hopefully people will learn from there mistakes of the past. I know I have. However I have little faith they will. The jumps in oil prices and the decline in SUV sales was temporary till oil declined, and then sales went up again. The average US salary for a family of four is around $46,000. You and I make a good wage considering (Yes I want my contract restored!) the masses here in the US. Maybe you should downsize your house, or if you are upside down in some 1/5 Adjusted ARM (or interest only loan) it might be worth considering being a little more financial savvy in the future. Age 65 is the law, picking up OT under an RLA contract is legal as well. I am not going to call you names, and you should not let your blood pressure boil. We each live with ourselves, and in the end we evaluate how we benefited from our profession and how we contributed to it. Sometimes it helps to view things through the eyes of some of our peers who are not as fortunate. Good Luck, AAflyer |
Originally Posted by AAflyer
(Post 765049)
Greetings Tsquare,
I have and will not call you anything. Look, when we took our paycuts I also took a 38% paycut. I went from old 767 payrates to MD-80 FO BK style pay rates. And guys who went from Captain to FO took in some cases a 50% cut. Lastly the furloughs to 100%. What I am asking you to do and others is be responsible for your choices. It is NOT is a "RIGHT" to get the Captains house when you make Captain, and over indulge when your (not you specifically) income was high, but many put themselves in the predicament they are in now. Hopefully people will learn from there mistakes of the past. I know I have. However I have little faith they will. The jumps in oil prices and the decline in SUV sales was temporary till oil declined, and then sales went up again. The average US salary for a family of four is around $46,000. You and I make a good wage considering (Yes I want my contract restored!) the masses here in the US. Maybe you should downsize your house, or if you are upside down in some 1/5 Adjusted ARM (or interest only loan) it might be worth considering being a little more financial savvy in the future. Age 65 is the law, picking up OT under an RLA contract is legal as well. I am not going to call you names, and you should not let your blood pressure boil. We each live with ourselves, and in the end we evaluate how we benefited from our profession and how we contributed to it. Sometimes it helps to view things through the eyes of some of our peers who are not as fortunate. Good Luck, AAflyer Look, you guys are completely missing my point apparently. I am not living out of my personal means. I do not advocate ever doing that. One need look no further than the stupidity of the US government to see how utterly retarded that is. But the fact is.. people now find themselves in this situation due partially to no fault of their own. Furloughees are at the head of this list, no doubt. But.... as I said.. altruism only goes so far. The ultimate altruism would be for the old guys to leave when they thought they should have been gone. Good luck with that one.. |
tsquare your comments about altruism are absolutely right.
AAflyer... "Maybe you should downsize your house, or if you are upside down in some 1/5 Adjusted ARM (or interest only loan) it might be worth considering being a little more financial savvy in the future." Man this is just brilliant advice, and a statement of the obvious, and rather condescending. A lot of folks these days are in dire straits financially, and it's not just furloughees. |
Originally Posted by TTOCSMCC
(Post 765112)
tsquare your comments about altruism are absolutely right.
AAflyer... "Maybe you should downsize your house, or if you are upside down in some 1/5 Adjusted ARM (or interest only loan) it might be worth considering being a little more financial savvy in the future." Man this is just brilliant advice, and a statement of the obvious, and rather condescending. A lot of folks these days are in dire straits financially, and it's not just furloughees. What AA wrote is spot on. I guess you failed to do the simple math on the equation: Look, when we took our pay cuts I also took a 38% pay cut. I went from old 767 pay rates to MD-80 FO BK style pay rates. And guys who went from Captain to FO took in some cases a 50% cut. Lastly the furloughs to 100%. For all the "Altruism Flag Wavers": (note: not trying to spike TS's Blood PSI) Just b/c you get a 'shiny new quarter', does that mean you need to go buy the biggest house/best new cars/fastest boats....or in some cases, all 3??? I would dare bet that type of mind frame puts most 'pilots' right against the ceiling of living at the top of their means?? If that's the case, hate to rain on your dream.....shocker, the slightest ripple & your apple cart is endanger of turning over when you live your life-style that thin. In the end, it's called being 'fiscally responsible'. It has been kinda a "vogue" topic in today's financial world. :cool: TTOCSMCC, you said "A lot of folks these days are in dire straits financially, and it's not just furloughees".....you are correct, and again in a large amount of cases (outside those who are furloughed), it's called not being 'fiscally responsible' and "living outside of your means".....that simple. It's Econ-101 folks.....PLAN for the WORST, hope/dream for the best. Doing the inverse has been displayed by many over the last 24 months. During the good times (pay raises/new aircraft/company expansion/positive career progression), it's funny to watch the 'arm-n-arm' group cohesiveness of pilot groups. When things are "not so much", it's alarming to see how many people justify their "me-me-me" mentality in pulling up the rope by saying "how do you expect me to still live on $150K+ AFTER taking a 30%+ pay cut".....Newsflash....Living beyond your means?? Not Rocket Science. It's not a shocker, the industry we work in is volital to say the least......Ebbe & Flow - hiring one minute, and furloughing/pay cuts the next. To an extent, WE (pilots) can NOT control fellow pilots getting furloughed, but we (individuals) sure as heck can control living a "nice life" and still doing it within our means that DOES NOT cause us to use the excuses displayed in this thread when economics turn south. One good/simple point that Oscar made regarding flying "OT with pilots on the streets" speak volumes (who's wife holds a degree from the best University around):
Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch
(Post 764732)
The right thing to do doesn't have to be in the CONTRACT!
The Oscar |
1) Living within your means is not altruism, but prudence and self-preservation.
2) There is a chronological problem if one argues that the 54% paycuts are responsible for the need to fly more today. The towers came down while Delta had not yet seen the bulk of the C2K raises. Someone that was living within their means under POS 96 would presumably not have increased their expenses between 2001 and today. Not if they get the paper, have the internet, or watch television. So we got the warning (9/11) well before the train wreck (LOA 46 and 51). All we had to do, was not get on. Our current rates probably are pretty close to our POS 96 rates. I returned from furlough at exactly the same rate (within pennies), aswhen I left. I lost the 18% under LOA 51, and made up most of that since, and then some, since I changed aircraft. It is true that the rates never kept up with inflation, but then again, most of us are on better paying airplanes today than under POS 96. So while the sad news is that we are nowhere near where we belong, the inescapable fact is that anyone who reads the paper has had about nine years to recognize that the environment was not favorable to us, and adapt. Not adapt by making drastic cuts in their lifestyle: adapt by controlling new costs. My experience is that the guys that are truly hurting now are guys that jumped in on the housing bubble, and grossly overspent, between LOA 46 and 51. I find it extremely difficult to commiserate. Luckily, they are a minority. |
Originally Posted by TTOCSMCC
(Post 765112)
tsquare your comments about altruism are absolutely right.
AAflyer... "Maybe you should downsize your house, or if you are upside down in some 1/5 Adjusted ARM (or interest only loan) it might be worth considering being a little more financial savvy in the future." Man this is just brilliant advice, and a statement of the obvious, and rather condescending. A lot of folks these days are in dire straits financially, and it's not just furloughees. Not all of what I wrote came out as intended. I also wrote a private email to Tsquare. I went through a rather serious financial situation a few years back as well. I understand what some of these folks are going through. However, it is obviously not a statement of the obvious as millions of Americans are in over there head. I think SC understood what I was trying to say. If you were offended I apologize. My intent on this board and this subject is not to act in a condescending manner. AAflyer |
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