Storm Cloud on the Horizon
 

Maybe Congress can buy our houses (at 2006 prices) and then we can all move closer to our bases, so we can be rested enough to fly?

They can also demand back the contracts that were had before the employee groups were raped in bankruptcy...subsequently allowing outsourcing to completely go over the edge.

I can understand why the good Senators would be so concerned – I mean 50 people killed, that must be a new record or something– we must take action. Oh wait; here are some numbers for causes of death. That’s odd I can’t seem to find aircraft accidents on this list.

Number of deaths for leading causes of death

• Heart disease: 631,636
• Cancer: 559,888
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
• Diabetes: 72,449
• Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
• Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
• Septicemia: 34,234

Oh, My bad, lets be more specific and look at accidental deaths – surely with all the attention aviation gets we must be the number one cause of accidental death.

THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL DEATH

1. Motor vehicle crashes
Deaths per year: 43,200
The winner, by a ridiculously huge (and ever-increasing) margin is: death by car wreck. Head on collision, sideswipe, single-vehicle smash-up, full car rollover, pedestrian takedown, choking on own carsick vomit, spontaneous combustion-the fun never stops for car owners. Try air travel instead; it's much safer. Do you see it anywhere on this list?
2. Falls
Deaths per year: 14,900
Then we come to the America's Funniest Home Videos category of accidental death, including falls from ladders, down stairs, over curbs, off buses, into manholes, and through plate glass windows.
3. Poisoning by solids and liquids
Deaths per year: 8,600
These would be all your commonly recognized poisons, as well as such items as mushrooms, shellfish, drug overdoses, and problems with medicines-which is a wide category, and why it is so high on the list. What they leave out is things like food poisoning or salmonella, which they classify as "disease deaths" and place on another list.
4. Drowning
Deaths per year: 4,000
This includes all sorts of drownings in boat accidents and those resulting from swimming, playing in the water, falling in, or even having a bath. The human body is what, 70% water? And we begin our lives in a watery environment, there's lots of oxygen in water what's the deal? Something for the scientists to work on.
5. Fires and burns
Deaths per year: 3,700 This would include deaths resulting from fires, such as smoke inhalation, falling beams, and sitting through Backdraft. Ironic that cancer is number two on the total deaths list, and a by-product of smoking is responsible for one of the top causes of accidental deaths. Are we getting the picture that this is a dangerous pastime? What kind of warnings do we have to put on these boxes, anyway?
6. Suffocation
Deaths per year: 3,300Call this one the "Heimlich" section, as these deaths mostly resulted from blockages of the respiratory system by food or other objects.
7. Firearms
Deaths per year: 1,500
We can thank our second amendment rights for all 1500 of these deaths; call it the "right to die" amendment. You probably don't want to know how many countries in the world do not even have "accidental death by firearms" on their top ten, or their top twenty. Suffice it to say that it's most of them. Of the 1500, you're looking at about 75% young males between the age of 14 and 25 (and getting younger every year), who unintentionally shoot themselves or someone else. For more information on the place of guns in society, click over to our pros and cons section.

8. Poisoning by gases
Deaths per year: 700
There's nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning In this category, you mostly have deaths by carbon monoxide poisoning due to faulty operation of a heating or cooking appliance, or a standing automobile. We assume, however, that the noxious gasses emitted by Uncle Albert qualify too.

9. Medical & Surgical Complications and Misadventures
Deaths per year: 500
While we are incredibly insensitive people, we did not coin the term "medical misadventure"- the National Safety Council did. How is death by surgeon a "misadventure?" While we're not sure, we suspect that this number refers to elective surgeries that people undertake, such as liposuction. After all, the removal of a brain tumor is not usually considered to be an "adventure."
10. Machinery
Deaths per year: 350
We can thank the farmers of America for the inclusion of this particular misfortune as a cause of death. Between corn-huskers and wheat-threshers, is it a wonder? The reason it is last on the list is that there just aren't enough people in farming these days. Ironically, they have all been replaced by machines. Hmm accident, or deliberate act by wanton machinery? We may never know.

Just another example of our tax dollars at work.
Scoop :confused:

Good lord, the solution wouldn't involve paying Colgan pilots enough to actually LIVE in base?

Of course not. Silly me.

Nu

These morons infuriate me! Changing our commuting rules will do nothing. How about they go after the real roots of the problem. Like PAY, no work rules, no rest rules, poor training, and the JACKWHOLE CEO's who cut massive corners to maximize their bonuses off the backs of their workers.

These IDIOTS don't even know what's going on with the industry, but they want to regulate it? Oh, no wait. They don't want to regulate it, it's a de-regulated industry to better the consumer. But wait, they want to tell us how to do everything, so it's regulated. :confused:


IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

I guess this would be a good way to have that pilot shortage everyone's been threatening. Who wants to make more sacrifices for this job? Not me! I'll quit.

Once again, changing our commuting rules does not cost a company anything to their bottom line. It costs you, not the government and not each company unless they agree with their unions to cover some of the cost. That is why it is the chosen path. It is in effect just another low cost option.

Johnson, I love ya brother. Yes these guys are idiots, and yes those are all problems with this industry, but none of the a fore mentioned solutions had anything to do with this accident. This accident was the direct result of a moron who should never have had a license and the FAA who allowed a child without enough experience to recognize his moronity.

Fatigue is low hanging fruit for grandstanding legislators and administrators. No one wants to tackle the real problem, unqualified and under qualified people flying passengers around.

I agree. I personally think we should go to PS to the first point of departure. Heck with PBS they can build with great efficiency schedules that would work for every pilot to live wherever they want. There would be a cost to that. Just making commuting or the lack there of law, is a lot cheaper. See above post.

Well Duh, that would require money and MAY effect the bottom line. Changing commuting rules is free and has great political cover.

So as usual, Democrat or Republican, our government FAILS to deal with the root of the problem.:mad::mad:

Like it or not, the unions have some (small amount) culpability in this too. Instead of calling a spade a spade and recognizing human pilot error was at fault, unions try to protect the obviously stupid among us. We should protect the innocent and protect our rights to due process but when all is said and done we have to recognize that some of us make mistakes.

ALPA is missing a golden opportunity here by not trumpeting the lack of ATP qualifications for regional carriers junior FO positions. Yes, there has been some movement towards that but that bill is not garnering the press that the fatigue issue is. ACL is right, it's the low cost solution. ALPA should be out there every day shouting Safety, like Freedom, is not Free!

And buy a new house in six months when THAT base closes.

What no one seems to notice is that had the FO been on duty during the time she was commuting, she still would have be UNDER a 16 hour duty day.

I agree, and I have know it is ugly, but safety should not be off limits. There are ways to use safety as a marketing tool. Colgan is ALPA and Renslow is an ALPA pilot. They are protecting their pilot.

I have more to say but I will leave it at that.

I have not looked at that. I think they are looking at the last 24 hrs. She had no rest (real rest) prior to that. Skiing, commuting, sitting, flying......

You know that movie Bedazzled, where Brendan Frazier makes wishes with the best of intentions, and somehow the worst happens? I would love to see this pass, and then everyone grow enough stones to just quit. I find it funny when the person with the power comes crawling back looking for help. Then we have the upper hand in negotiations.

Yes, I am aware of the RLA, but I do not care anymore.

What does the RLA have to do with quitting. Any one can quit, just give two weeks notice to be nice. Now if a large portion of the pilot group gave two weeks notice at once that might get someones attention.:D

The only de-regulated part of the industry is how easy it is for an upstart to get a certificate, hire inexperienced and inexpensive labor, and then sell tickets for pennies because it is great for "the consumer". This is the same "consumer" who will spend more money on a pair of jeans than to fly coast-to-coast.

True, anyone can quit. When everyone quits, that could be interpreted as an illegal work action.

Well said!!

I disagree.

If I tender my resignation with no expectation of further work with a particular company I don't care how many others quit at the same time. Last I checked I still live in America and can choose who I work for and when I want to QUIT.

If the company chooses to make me a better offer then that is their choice, but I have no obligation to negotiate with them or accept it.

Quitting or Resigning is a permanent choice not a negotiation or work action.

Part of the problem with the consumer is that they assign no value to our service.Therefore they will almost never pay more than the lowest price available. It is a means to an end. For the industry to change that NEEDS to change.

And then you have a CEO who claims his airline is the Walmart of the sky while newhire FO's qualify for food stamps, and that's flying an Airbus.

This will F up everything...

Won't happen in the old USofA. I want it all, now and cheap!!!

All things are cyclical. It will change, but it may have to get a lot worse for that change to happen.

People need to realize that their own greed has caused a lot of problems for themselves. Quality costs. The reason the free market is working against so many people is their own greed. Cheap does not equate to good.

That pretty much nails it on the head.

Morale my friend, is not my problem. There are plenty of pilots who will do your job for half your pay, and live in Chicago.

The entire hearing is on the Senate web site. I was very surprised that the Senator brought up pay a number of times.

Glad I live in Hoboken :), about time you miserable commuters paid as much for a housing & taxes that I have too

I keed I keed

At least you still have good live music on Washington St. Quit yer b1tchin' :D

Commuting Rules and possible Legislation???
 

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I see all the vitriol about the commuting issue coming to the surface but Exactly WHAT would you DO about it were it to become LAW?? Congress is looking at the VAST Majority of workers INCLUDING executives that have to live near their places of employment. In their Eyes they see the problem as If you Work somewhere maybe you should LIVE near there as well. That might NOT be popular to Pilots BUT. Living Near a Hub of your operation might NOT be too much to ask if the question is put to you "right". I work for United. When I worked @ SFO I lived in a reasonable distance form SFO though there were guys who lived nearly 100 miles away from SFO and Came to work Daily. They bid where they wanted to Live when the opportunity (and seniority) came. Some that started @ SFO now live in Denver Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, OR., Chicago, New York, Washington and Boston. Many of them are NOT from those area but they live there just the same. There IS no inherent "Right" for Pilots to have to commute and not have a local address Near a Hub of your Airline. But Pilot's can't even seem to manage to form a SINGLE Strategy for their profession. Doctors Have the AMA, Lawyers Have the American Bar Assn. Pilots have NO such association to which they belong and support. You can't even agree that an Air Transport Rating is or should Be the entry point to become a "True" Airline Pilot. Or that having an Under-Graduate Degree is even Necessary!! Until you do, you will NEVER achieve the respect you think you're deserving of. Hell! Even Truck Drivers have the "Teamsters". Until Airline Pilots are ALL pulling on the SAME "end of the rope" you'll CONTINUE to be "Mis-represented, Lied to, Whipsawn, and Generally Abused". And you Bring it upon yourselves. One guy flies "by the Book" and at least Half of the rest of the group is looking for HIM to be "Canned"! Many are plotting their "number" IF he gets "Canned"! And you wonder WHY Management isn't afraid of you?? A National organization FOR Airline Pilots is NOT a Union. That's a Local Issue. The Lack of Nationwide Standards is your Problem. Any "Tom", "Dick","Harry" or John Travolta who can Earn,Beg,Borrow, or Steal can become an airline Pilot! Because the bottom Line is "Money"!! Not until that Bottom Line is DEMONSTRATED Education,Skill, Knowledge, and Proficiency will you gain the pretige and respect of your chosen Profession. Simple as THAT. Being an Airline Pilot Should come with something More than "I've got the Hours". And I got the JOB.. It SHOULD also come with an "Honorific" like a Phd. entitles a person of letters to addessed as "Doctor" William Tell. Not just Bill Tell you "Buttwipe". I met Justice Thurgood Marshall and I addressed Him as "Justice Marshall" untill he told me to stop it. Any Airline Captain should be addressed As "Captain" William Tell ,Atr. Also as a man or woman of "Letters". Then and ONLY then Will the respect you seek come about and be followed by the proper renumeration as well. Am I smoking Something?? Could be, but whether you AGREE with me or NOT. How FAR am I from the absolute TRUTH?!? ;)

Those numbers are dwindling fast. It's one thing to "do your job for half your pay" for a few years to build time, but it's another to do it for an entire career. Before the economy took out most of the non-flying jobs, about half of Eagle's FO attrition was due to pilots who saw no future in aviation. Ask about any pilot who is a father if he'd recommend it to their kid. Most will not for the same reason there are less and less young people willing to shell out $150,000 for a $20,000/year job.


That said, I think many of pilots here are overly worried about the commuting issue. Think about it. The same group who are complaining about the "500 hour wonders" need to remember that those same low paid pilots can't afford to move to their domicile for a $20,000 job. They'll quit and find another career. Airplanes don't fly themselves so all those RJs, puddle-jumpers and other "commuter" aircraft will be parked. Think the Senators and Congressmen will recognize there is a problem when they can no longer fly to their hometown? Think businessmen won't raise a ruckus with Congress when commuters and mainline aircraft services are cut for a lack of pilots? Economics will solve this problem and it is up to Congress and airline management to figure out how to entice pilots to stick with a job that pays so little.

The solution I see forthcoming is to make commuting part of the duty day. How airline scheduling will work this out will take some doing but I don't see commuting going away. The order was to find a solution, not get rid of commuting. Commutable lines is a solution.

Don't forget that people have to move due to getting a new job/promoted/reassigned/etc. all the time, in every industy.

I don't think we'll generate a lot of sympathy for having to move every couple of years--especially from the military folks. A requirement to live in domicile is not a stretch, by any means.

how in the world are they going to enforce commuting rules? this is a serious question. if all it is, is having a local address, i see 2000 pilots all listing the same crappy apartment and dividing the rent 2000 ways.

True, but again, the economics of the situation will drive the results. Pilots don't have to move for their job nor are they obligated to fly for a living. All they have to do is say "**** you, I quit" and go find another job closer to home. While those pilots who $100,000+ jobs and decent schedules would be less likely to quit, those First Officers at regional airlines flying for less than school teacher pay might find an alternative career both more lucrative and easier on their family and social life.

This cannot be enforced without curtailing jumpseat priv's.

I'm thinking that as a worst case scenerio, we can let this typical 10-minute government temper tantrum about commuting run its course. Management dances around the 'cost of living adjustment' issue in pilot pay by talking up the concept of commuting.

Looking at how practically every carrier bases in ridiculous cost of living areas I'd say that even management may push Congress to back off this initiative. Because after all, if a crew member is fatigued, wrong as it is, management tries to throw the blame our way.

A two-leg commuter to an outstation base,
-Lost

Ultimately, the ATA is going to be with us, not against us, on this. If junior FO's (especially regional FOs) actually have to live in base, starting pay is going to have to go up. There aren't enough trust fund kids out there, and I really don't think folks are going to shell out $80-100K for a job that will require them to live in a slum tenement. A few will of course, but nowhere near enough.

Also if pilots have to pack up and move everytime they upgrade/transition/etc then (most) spouses are not going to be able to hold down a good job...pilot pay will have to go up to compensate.