Time for government employees pay to be cut
 

Federal mediators make between 100,000 to 150,000 per year. I have not received a raise in 5 years and make a third of their salaries. They enforce the antiquated Railway Labor Act which allows airlines to not give raises for years while they do nothing. What is their purpose again? Since the US Government is losing so much money, I propose a 50 percent pay cut and drastic reduction in benefits for these and other government employees. If it's good enough for us, it should be good enough for them....

Agree 100%!!

And when other civilian sector jobs (including the airlines) were making MUCH more than any gov't worker, are you also suggesting an equalization of pay?
It's a crime what has happened to the pay for all ranks of professional pilots, but I'm not sure if attacking gov't pay across the ranks is really a sensible solution to the problem. It sounds to me more like you are mad at the Federal Mediators who you dont see as having done any good for your segment of employment.

USMCFLYR

Nope not me I am tired of the pay from top to bottom(with the exception of the miltary), that goes for most of the state employees also.

I have seen that statistic too along with the average private sector salary of $45,000 a year. The problem is there are more skilled government jobs than private sector. The bulk of the private sector is full of part-time minimum wage jobs that employ a lot of high school age students too. The government does not have many jobs comparable to that. I would like to see a salary comparison between the same jobs for the private and federal sector.

Skilled like TSA
 

You bring up a valid point but do you really think the skill set of the TSA worker standing on the other side of the metal detector waving you through is that much higher than the grocery store checker?

There are federal employees at National parks picking up trash and scooping gravel, there are low level government jobs.

If you compare the salary range for a medical laboratory tech employed with the federal government vs. your local hospital, Uncle pays more and has more bennies!

Most government employees over the last few years have masters and above. Most in foreign languages and in other high demand fields. A few years ago there was an article about this in The Wallstreet Journal. The feds were saying they were having a hard time filling positions when they were offering $65,000 and the private sector was offering 150,000 or more.

Although I am no big fan of TSA in any way, shape, or form, but at least SOME TSA workers (maybe the ones reading the actual X-ray machines have a greater skill set than working the scanner at the grocery line now don't you think? I mean I don't use the self check out lanes but I'm sure with some trainng I could figure it out. I do know that the check out line person doesn't seem to know how to make change without the registar giving them the answer. Finally, maybe they make a little more due the supposed reponsilbility of the job? I don't think that are going to be stopping the next great terrorist attack, but it isn't too far of a stretch to say that the job has greater consequences due to failure than the check out line person. A lot of my gripes with TSA (and I don't even deal with them day-in, day-out like airline pilots) is with the QUALITY/TYPE of people they hire sometimes rather than the job they do (though I think the job ought to be be a little different - see old thread about other airlines security procedures)

USMCFLYR

Please don't say most without backing it up. Not to be forgotten in this argument is the retirement system and health care coverage for government employees is worth 2 to 3 times what the private sector provides.

Agreed. It has long been a complaint of the federal sector about being able to keep the highest level employees around when they could make three times the salary in the private sectors.

Lawyers is a fair example. Distict attorneys making maybe $50-60,000/yr and handling hundreds of cases at a time while they see their peers go to the private defense firms and making six figures and spending those long hours in much most pluch offices :)

Military members aren't considered Federal Employees in the manner we are spekaing of in this thread, but I remember the tough time having career discussions with young EOD Marines about making the Corps a career when they are making approx $2,500/month (basic pay) and working side by side with civilian contractor EOD personnel making $100,000 for a 6 month deployment (or military -vs- contract pilots for that matter) :rolleyes:

USMCFLYR

I think that the government pays fair wages for most jobs. They do over pay for certain jobs, but in general they pay a fair wage. The private sector has a wider range of pay ranging of overpaid and underpaid jobs that are often not fair. When you compare an underpaid private sector job with a government job, then it can appear that the government overpays. A better question to ask is is that the private sector employee being offered fair compensation.

If a military cargo pilot makes $60,000 a year, but a civilian cargo operator pays its pilots $30,000, does that mean the military pilot is overpaid? Or does it mean the civilian pilot is underpaid? And for those who think they are not comparable, this is just an example and remember civilian operators do get contracts to fly into war zones.

Talk about timing here us a Usless Today Article on Government Pay:

Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.com

For those interested in bottomlines:

8 out of 10 Goobermint Jobs pay more for the same work.

Average pay for Civil Service $67691 vice $60,046 for private service in the same field.

This does not include the benefit costs of $41K vice $8K, yes $41,000.00 in benefits for wagon riders while the wagon pullers get $8,000 in benefits.

Moral of the story: Union jobs are best when the employer can't go bankrupt.

Dude, what is your problem. The entire federal government service industry has lost almost 5,000 jobs since this recession has started. How many jobs has the civilian market shed ;) You mean a government employee making six figures with a 55% retirement after 20 years is unsustainable???

I don't know about all the random jobs throughout the bureaucracy, but I can say with certainty that the government lawyers, doctors, scientists, etc, the professional jobs for which there are near equivalents in the private sector, all get paid less. A DoJ attorney might be making $50k to $200k depending on experience and position, but those are extremely competitive jobs. The people that work there not only could have gotten jobs at top private firms, but also are actively headhunted by private firms because experience working on the government side is so valuable. The private attorneys that they face off against are probably making $200k to $2M a year.

Again I can't talk about all government jobs, and obviously some federal jobs just have a certain glamour that a lot of people would love to be a part of and knowingly sacrifice some pay. For example, I think that working for the Department of Justice, CIA, FBI, State Department, any of the national research laboratories, NASA, US Federal Courts, that stuff is all just very cool. And they get extremely smart and qualified people to work for them for relatively low pay.

So I don't really like it all the sudden in a recession when private sector employees complain about "overpaid" public workers. For a lot of them, they chose to accept less money than they could otherwise make and part of the tradeoff was job, wage, and benefits security. None of the SEC's attorneys are making the million+ that a top private securities attorney might make in a good year.

I'd say the problem isn't that Federal and State workers are overpaid, but that the private sector has eroded the pay of labor. Government employees are more highly unionized than private sector(in part because the government cannot mount illegal anti-unionization campaigns.) Effective unions have helped public sector employees maintain their relative quality of life. Meanwhile at my company the maximum allowable raise(non-pilot) is limited to 3%; and 1% is more common. Far below inflation so experienced employees work for less buying power every year.

I'm a little jealous of Government employees' (relative)good fortune. But I can't be mad at them for it.

Compare your total compensation package to your CEO's. Look at the last 20 years' worth of data. Which has gone up more? Would you be better off if yours had only increased at the same rate as the CEO's? Would you be better off then those Gov't workers? You Betcha.

Now who are you mad at?

USMCFLYER wrote
 

"are you also suggesting an equalization of pay?"

Not at all but, the difference is that the American taxpayer is forced to finance these pay rates. The free market voluntarily funds the civilian rate of pay.
The government employee also gets a benefits package a civilian worker can only dream about. That also has to be added into the total compensation equation.
The USPS (a quasi-governmental agency) is bleeding money. Business is down by nearly 20% since 2006. Have they let one GED educated employee go? Have they cut one dime in cost? Instead they are going to raise prices and cut service. A private company would be out of business in a second with strategy like that.
No sour grapes here.

You guys equate gov't workers with the person you deal with at the DMV line, or the TSA worker at the checkpoint. There are many highly skilled government workers and they deserve every dime they get. There are also some deadbeats, and that is true of every industry. Don't talk down their pay because they've handled their business (read pay, qol, and retirement options) better than we airline pilots have. :mad:

I partially agree with your point, but are you aware of the HUGE disparity between the working hours of a top-ten firm and a DoJ attorney (or many of the jobs you listed)? The G, for the most part, is a 9-5 job, hence the lower pay. If you're working for a high power firm, you're going to be tied to a blackberry until you die.

FBI pays very reasonably. They get 25% of their base salary ON TOP of their earnings, which is predicated on a 50-hour week (flat-rate over time). I'll also tell you that most individuals who go into such work for the "cool factor" quickly leave.

Again, I think we should be more angry at the inferior standards for becoming an airline pilot, people willing to to fly food, and the "fly now, grieve later" precedent, which I think is insane.

Do you work for an airline? :eek:

I just checked the rates. To send a FedEx letter within my own zip code, for a 3 day delivery costs about $18. A stamps is $0.44. Three day delivery from Mass to Fla is $21. A stamps is $0.44 Three days from Mass to California is $23 A stamp is $0.44. When UPS or FedEx can deliver a letter at less than 40X the cost of sending it USPS then complaining about how the post office runs itself might make sense.

Did you read the USA Today article, it has a table that list all the government jobs and equivalent private sector jobs. Yes they get paid a little less but they get way better benefits. I know lots of lawyers in the private sector not all can afford a Boston Legal life style.

A lot of the Government Doctors are government doctors because they are working off Medical school obligations to the government did you factor that into the pay issue?

The point is not if some Government employees are overpaid, the point is our civil service system is unsustainable. I hope all of you pro government bureaucracy guys ask yourself one question. Is there a ratio of private sector to public sector jobs that is to high. Right now I think that ratio is about 4 to 1 working towards 3 to 1.

Be honest, your kid comes to you for advice, do you tell him to take a public sector or a private sector job and why?

Wages could hit steepest plunge in 18 years
 

Another USA Today article from 10/16/2009:

Wages could hit steepest plunge in 18 years

A bad economy and low inflation are starting to drag down wages for millions of everyday workers and freeze benefits for millions of retirees.


Average weekly wages have fallen 1.4% this year for private-sector workers through September, after adjusting for inflation, to $616.11, a USA TODAY analysis of Bureau of Labor Statistics data found. If that trend holds, it will mark the biggest annual decline in real wages since 1991.

...

Weekly wages have tumbled largely because employees are working fewer hours — an average of 30 per week — than at anytime since the government began tracking the data in 1964.


Hourly wages are stagnant or declining, too. After adjusting for inflation, average hourly wages have dipped a half-percent this year to $18.67 an hour in September.

...

Weekly wages for private workers after adjusting for inflation:
Year Change
2000 -0.4%
2001 +1.5%
2002 +0.2%
2003 -0.7%
2004 -0.2%
2005 -0.4%
2006 +2.2%
2007 -1.2%
2008 +2.4%
2009 -1.4%

Note: 2009 figure through September
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

$616/week huh? Wow. We have pilots working for half that average.

The USPS wants to cut services and close down some post offices, but Congress won't let them. Congress believes that the USPS provides a communication service that should be accessible to everyone regardless of its profitability. It is sort of like the EAS.

At the other end of the extreme of government pay are astronauts. I always assumed they made a ton of money, but it turns out they only make $104,000 a year to command the most complex transportation device.

Hate government workers all you want, but what do expect them to do, turn down their benefits and ask for less pay? The reason why they have better compensation in some cases is because unlike the private sector, the government is more interested in service than making money. In some cases that is bad, but at least you know they aren't trying to give you the least they can give you for the amount of money you pay.

What this means in the end is that our taxes go up. It sucks, but if we like the country we live in, then we have to pay for it. Most western countries have very high income tax rates. Instead we have relatively low income tax rates but to fill the gap we are nickeled and dimed all over the place. It is a pain, but I don't mind paying my taxes because it costs a lot of money to run this country that I choose to live in. I also don't mind paying more now so that this country is still around for my grandchildren.

I wouldn't mind if government compensation got reevaluated, but to say that every government employee has it made is like saying every pilot works a few days a month and makes $200,000 a year. We don't like to be generalized and neither do government workers.

Nice strawman; hating government workers. Fact last week the Federal Government gained 7K employees private sector employees lost 360,000 (no Harry Reid comments allowed). Let me see if I can put this in terms you might be able to understand. Let us pretend that last week Delta gained 7K pilots but lost 360,000 passengers. How long till the airline goes under?

No one is talking about hating government employees we just see a trend that is unsustainable. Yes it must be nice to work for a non profit corporation (in reality operates at a rapidilly expanding deficit), that can command prices, where the union can bribe the managers, and if all other things fail they can just print money.

So would it be better if the government fired its employees? It might save money, but remember it still cost the government money to fire workers and then have to pay for their unemployment. When the economy tanks the government hires to get people off the street and provide the employment the private sector can't. If our government could function properly, they would then cut those extra jobs when the economy turned around, but they don't.

In a recession, the government spends more and when the economy improves it is supposed to spend less/take in more taxes. Right now I don't mind if the government is hiring and paying fair wages, but if the government continues to spend money when things improve and continue to offer tax breaks, then I will be upset.

The biggest angst will be felt over the next 20 years as the baby boomers retire. The private sector then in a definite decline in real wages and the retired private sector with no retirement will be expected to pay for City, County, State, and Federal retires retirement pensions and health care benefits.

We are simply now at a point where the two lines have crossed. As they continue to diverge and the gap becomes a factor of 2, 3, 5, etc; Expect a major backlash for which there is no simple solution.

I hope those 7K gov't workers went to one of the DMV offices in San Diego. I waited for over 2 hours to get a temporary registration for a trailer - a task that took maybe 10 minutes. :rolleyes:

I've always wanted to get into gov't flying vice the private sector, even when it was much more profitable to go private. I viewed the gov't side as much more stable and with good benefits for the long term. I would accept a low wage for those other bennies.

USMCFLYR

Race to the bottom. This mindset, if I can't have it then I don't want anyone else to have it, got pilots where they are. Typical pilot mentality.

Must be the union leaderships fault.........................

or

Must be the fact they are union employees................

or

Must be those greedy goverment employees fault.................

or

It might be your fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Darn skumbage employees wanting the best for thier families they can get. Only management should be able to do that.

Ah, a true Keynesian are you? Too bad John Maynard Keynes' theories have been totally refuted. Every dollar Government spends must be first taken from the private sector. In times of recession, when private sector spending and income is in decline, for government to take even more money to spend on silly stuff is just stupid. Government should be getting smaller and cutting taxes during down cycle times. Only through private sector investment and capital spending will we get out of a recession. It works every time it has been tried.

In our current discussion, remember every dollar spent hiring a new government worker must be borrowed from the Chinese, Japanese, et al. Our debt is already astronomical. Adding more government workers is just another way to make people more dependent on government.

A Keynesian approach could work, but no one ever does what they are supposed to do. During recessions the government is supposed to borrow money, but it is supposed to pay it back when the economy improves. When that time comes to pay the bill, no one wants to raise taxes or cut services so that money borrowed during the last downturn never gets paid.

What you are proposing is valid and will lead to greater growth. The reason why I don't really like it is although the highs are higher, the low is much lower. I don't want to experience a recession worse than this and a small government approach would make it worse for a period of time. If our society was more mature it could work. It would require citizens to save up a lot of money when the economy is good so they can live off their savings when it gets bad and they are unemployed for a few years. Unfortunately most don't have that discipline.

Also, our economy is based on trust and if the government starts laying people off people will panic even more and it will get worse. A large government/socialist approach produces a false economy that is inefficient, a pure free market economy is very volatile. As with everything the best answer lies somewhere in the middle and everyone has their own opinion on what the answer is.

Another Strawman. No one said fire anyone. How about this reform the civil service retirement to a defined contribution for new hires. Cap current government retirement to 25 years of service. No raises for Government workers when there is no economic growth. Put Government health care insurance on par with say the 60th percentile private insurance subsidies.

As far as your in a recession the governmewnt should blah blah blah, hows that working out for ya?

I would rather ride in the wagon than pull it myself. :D

I like that. It has been a while since I talked to someone with reasonable requests. Most people want to cut benefits across the board, but I don't really think that is fair for those that were hired expecting the retirement plan promised. As long as the changes are made to new hires, no one will feel like the rug was pulled from under them.

Agreed, but I'm having a hard time climbing in that wagon. :(

USMCFLYR

Taken from the LA Times.

Don't worry, DAL FOs, you'll someday (20+ years, A, WB, OT, GS) make as much as this government nurse pulled down in OT in the debt ridden state of Kalifornia.

Like*many*other*state*employees,*prison*nurse*Nell ie*Larot*was*hit*last*year*with*furloughs*that*cut *her*salary:*It*dropped*$10,000,*to*$92,000.

But*she*more*than*made*up*for*it*by*working*extra* shifts,*raking*in*$177,512**in*overtime,*according *to*state*records.*Her*total**$270,000*in*earnings *last*year*eclipsed*the*$225,000*paid*to*Matthew*C ate,*head*of*the*entire*state*prison*system.

Despite*Gov.*Arnold*Schwarzenegger's*decision*to*f urlough*workers*three*days*a*month*to*save*money,* many*employees*are*taking*home*paychecks*fattened* by*overtime*--*more*than*$1*billion*of*it*last*year.

The*total*overtime*paid*in*2009*actually*dropped*s lightly,*by*$64*million*from*the*year*before.*But* *it*was*up*from*the*$808*million*paid**in*2005*and *$598*million*in*2004.

"People*want*more*money,"*said*Larot.*The*furlough s,*which*began*in*February*2009,*cut*her*monthly*p ay*by*many*hundreds*of*dollars.*Without*overtime,* she*said,*"it*would*be*a*hardship."

Records*show*that*the*top*50*recipients*of*overtim e*last*year*each*received*more*than*$100,000*in*ex tra*compensation.*Most*were*from*the*departments*o f*corrections*and*mental*health,*which*account*for *more*than*half*of*the*overtime*doled*out*by*state *agencies;*35*of*the*top*50*were*registered*nurses .

Other*top*earners*include*prison*guard**Lt.*Randal l*Rowland,*who*collected*$133,000*in*overtime*pay, *and*California*Highway*Patrol*Officer*Kerry*Comph el,*who*received*$127,000.

The*rising*overtime*"is*unfathomable,"*said*Jon*Co upal,*president*of*the*anti-tax*Howard*Jarvis*Taxpayers*Assn.*"It*just*shows*t he*extraordinary*disconnect*between*the*public*sec tor*and*the*real*world.*No*business*would*operate* this*way."

State*Auditor*Elaine*Howle*has*also*raised*red*fla gs.*A*review*by*her*office*found*that*more*than*10 0*nurses*and*psychiatric*workers*on*the*state*payr oll*had*at*least*doubled*their*salaries*with*overt ime,*working*as*many*as*90*hours*a*week.

Two*nurses*at*Napa*State*Hospital*were*paid*more*t han*$1.3*million*combined*in*overtime*during*a*fiv e-year*period*ending*in*mid-2008,*Howle*found.*Beyond*the*cost*to*taxpayers,*H owle*worried*that*large*amounts*of*overtime*could* impair*nurses'*performance*and*jeopardize*patients .

"It*needs*to*be*better*managed*so*you*don't*have*e mployees*working*significant*amounts*of*overtime*a nd*potentially*raising*health*and*safety*issues,"* Howle*said*in*an*interview.

The*auditor*had*warned*in*October*that*furloughs*a nd*layoffs*would**probably*increase*overtime*costs *in*some*agencies,*and*she*called*for*the*state*to *renegotiate*its*union*contracts*to*set*caps.

Nancy*Lyerla,*a*leader*of*the*largest*union*repres enting*state*nurses,*noted*that*some*medical*and*m ental*health*facilities*have*to*be*staffed*24*hour s*a*day,*seven*days*a*week.*She*said*the*union*had *warned*state*officials*that*furloughs*would*creat e*staffing*gaps*that*would*have*to*be*filled*by*em ployees*working*overtime*at*time-and-a-half*pay.

"They*didn't*look*at*what*it*costs*to*replace*the* people*on*furlough,"*Lyerla*said.

The*effect*of*the*furloughs*is*to*cut*most*workers '*regular*pay*by*about*14%,*and*the*state*expects* to*save*$1.2*billion*this*way*in*the*current*fisca l*year.*But*on*an*individual*basis,*furloughs*have *not*always*saved*money.

The*unpaid*time*off*saves*the*state*$13,650*annual ly*in*pay*to*Larot,*but*her*overtime*last*year*wen t*up*nearly*twice*that*amount*--*by*$25,000*--*from*the*year*before.

Schwarzenegger,*who*ordered*the*furloughs*to*reduc e*a*multibillion-dollar*budget*shortfall,*has*taken*steps*to*reduce *overtime,*his*representatives*said.*The*governor* signed*legislation*last*year*stopping*employees*fr om*receiving*overtime*pay*in*weeks*when*they*also* take*leave*time.*He*also*directed*department*heads *to*manage*the*furloughs*so*that*they*do*not*resul t*in*overtime.

Still,*"there*are*some*facilities*that*require*24/7*coverage,"*said*Aaron*McLear,*a*spokesman*for*th e*governor.

That*is*the*case*where*Larot*works,*in*the*Departm ent*of*Corrections*and*Rehabilitation's*Deuel*Voca tional*Institution*in*Tracy.*She*"legitimately*ear ned"*her*overtime,*with*much*of*it*spent*overseein g*newly*admitted*inmates*on*suicide*watch,*accordi ng*to*Luis*Patino*Jr.,*a*spokesman*for*the*Califor nia*Prison*Health*Care*Receivership.

Patino*described*Larot*as*"an*exemplary*employee*w ho*takes*time*off*when*necessary*to*maintain*her*s afety*and*well-being*and*that*of*the*inmates*under*her*watch."

Howle's*audit*found*that*other*sites,*including*wa rds*at*Napa*State*Hospital,*frequently*overstaffed *their*shifts.*Mental*health*officials*said*some*u nits*did*not*accurately*report*patient*and*staffin g*needs*to*the*central*office*that*gives*work*assi gnments,**and*Howle*said*a*consultant*should*be*hi red*to*evaluate*whether*common*staffing*levels*are *justified.

"Overtime*has*been*gamed*in*California*for*decades ,"*said*Coupal.*"Clearly*there*is*a*lack*of*oversi ght.*This*needs*to*be*clamped*down."

Larot*dismissed*criticism*that*employees*are*takin g*advantage*of*a*broken*system.

"I*don't*know*why*people*are*complaining*about*the *overtime.*We*work*the*overtime,"*she*said.*"I*don 't*think*it's*anybody's*business."

[email protected]

For*more*on*California*government*and*politics,*go *to*latimes.com/californiapolitics.

Sorry, have no idea what took place with the formatting. iPhone continuing to dissapoint.

how is that.

No "shot" at you personally, and this is a thread drift, but the above statement certainly wasn't the position on this forum when age 65 kicked in. :rolleyes: