Who cares about CVRs, I'm worried about FDRs
03-06-2010 | 07:09 AM
#1
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Joined: Sep 2009
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From: Furloughed
Who cares about CVRs, I'm worried about FDRs
99% of the talk about this new bill has been about them monitoring and using the CVR against us. No doubt this is completely scary and must be stopped.
BUT... there hasn't been much talk at all about the fact that it also allows for FDR monitoring. I think this is even more scary. The CVR stuff, yes, thats good for a lot of paranoia but airlines simply don't have the manpower to listen to every minute of every flight, or even a reasonable percentage of them. Especially not manpower skilled enough to know what should and should not be said and when. They'll use that stuff when they're targeting specific flights and already on a witch-hunt.. and they'll be successful.
FDR data on the other hand CAN be downloaded for every single flight and run through analysis software. Fly 251kts at 9999'? They'll know. Exceed stabilized airspeed criteria due to a momentary gust on approach and not go around? They'll know. Get an abnormal but momentary EICAS message that you, as the pilot decide is not an issue but not write it up? They'll know.
The point I'm trying to make is nobody flies a perfect flight. With CVR data, they'll have to spend a lot of time, effort, and money trying to show that otherwise perfect pilots aren't. With the FDR data in their hands, it'll be right there for everyone to see with a few mouse clicks. Perfect for them to start "fixing the glitch" with any pilots they want to eliminate, the FAA wants to violate, etc.
BUT... there hasn't been much talk at all about the fact that it also allows for FDR monitoring. I think this is even more scary. The CVR stuff, yes, thats good for a lot of paranoia but airlines simply don't have the manpower to listen to every minute of every flight, or even a reasonable percentage of them. Especially not manpower skilled enough to know what should and should not be said and when. They'll use that stuff when they're targeting specific flights and already on a witch-hunt.. and they'll be successful.
FDR data on the other hand CAN be downloaded for every single flight and run through analysis software. Fly 251kts at 9999'? They'll know. Exceed stabilized airspeed criteria due to a momentary gust on approach and not go around? They'll know. Get an abnormal but momentary EICAS message that you, as the pilot decide is not an issue but not write it up? They'll know.
The point I'm trying to make is nobody flies a perfect flight. With CVR data, they'll have to spend a lot of time, effort, and money trying to show that otherwise perfect pilots aren't. With the FDR data in their hands, it'll be right there for everyone to see with a few mouse clicks. Perfect for them to start "fixing the glitch" with any pilots they want to eliminate, the FAA wants to violate, etc.
03-06-2010 | 08:24 AM
#3
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From: Left seat of a Jet
No person or pilot for that matter is perfect. Rdneck is right, 121 passenger service is a train wreck looking for a place to derail. I am not seeing this level of panic in 121 cargo where I reside or part 91/135 operations. Good luck!
03-06-2010 | 08:53 AM
#5
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: B757/767
99% of the talk about this new bill has been about them monitoring and using the CVR against us. No doubt this is completely scary and must be stopped.
BUT... there hasn't been much talk at all about the fact that it also allows for FDR monitoring. I think this is even more scary. The CVR stuff, yes, thats good for a lot of paranoia but airlines simply don't have the manpower to listen to every minute of every flight, or even a reasonable percentage of them. Especially not manpower skilled enough to know what should and should not be said and when. They'll use that stuff when they're targeting specific flights and already on a witch-hunt.. and they'll be successful.
FDR data on the other hand CAN be downloaded for every single flight and run through analysis software. Fly 251kts at 9999'? They'll know. Exceed stabilized airspeed criteria due to a momentary gust on approach and not go around? They'll know. Get an abnormal but momentary EICAS message that you, as the pilot decide is not an issue but not write it up? They'll know.
The point I'm trying to make is nobody flies a perfect flight. With CVR data, they'll have to spend a lot of time, effort, and money trying to show that otherwise perfect pilots aren't. With the FDR data in their hands, it'll be right there for everyone to see with a few mouse clicks. Perfect for them to start "fixing the glitch" with any pilots they want to eliminate, the FAA wants to violate, etc.
BUT... there hasn't been much talk at all about the fact that it also allows for FDR monitoring. I think this is even more scary. The CVR stuff, yes, thats good for a lot of paranoia but airlines simply don't have the manpower to listen to every minute of every flight, or even a reasonable percentage of them. Especially not manpower skilled enough to know what should and should not be said and when. They'll use that stuff when they're targeting specific flights and already on a witch-hunt.. and they'll be successful.
FDR data on the other hand CAN be downloaded for every single flight and run through analysis software. Fly 251kts at 9999'? They'll know. Exceed stabilized airspeed criteria due to a momentary gust on approach and not go around? They'll know. Get an abnormal but momentary EICAS message that you, as the pilot decide is not an issue but not write it up? They'll know.
The point I'm trying to make is nobody flies a perfect flight. With CVR data, they'll have to spend a lot of time, effort, and money trying to show that otherwise perfect pilots aren't. With the FDR data in their hands, it'll be right there for everyone to see with a few mouse clicks. Perfect for them to start "fixing the glitch" with any pilots they want to eliminate, the FAA wants to violate, etc.
Airline FOMs have allowable tolerances built in, & they're not going to be able to axe you for any of the examples you cited. If something pops up on the EICAS & then disappears, it's no longer an issue. You don't have to write it up, because it isn't there. If I get a pack fault after engine start because the bleed valve hasn't opened yet, I don't have to write it up. It was there because the pack was turned on, but there was no bleed air yet. But guess what? That's what my Vol 1 tells me to do.
Monitoring FDRs has been going on for years, & there are plenty of airlines that don't have ASAP programs. It will not be any different then it is today, because it's already being done.
03-06-2010 | 09:51 AM
#8
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From: Furloughed
Maybe thats true, but some of us work or have worked for airlines where being "FLAT OUT PARANOID" is both justified and the only way to stay employed.
I know that at my last airline there were dozens of instances where management had FDR data and wanted to terminate the pilots involved but thanks to FOQA they were unable to get the identifying info on it. That was the only thing keeping us safe and this bill would eliminate that.
I know that at my last airline there were dozens of instances where management had FDR data and wanted to terminate the pilots involved but thanks to FOQA they were unable to get the identifying info on it. That was the only thing keeping us safe and this bill would eliminate that.
03-06-2010 | 01:17 PM
#10
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From: ERJ145 Captain
99% of the talk about this new bill has been about them monitoring and using the CVR against us. No doubt this is completely scary and must be stopped.
BUT... there hasn't been much talk at all about the fact that it also allows for FDR monitoring. I think this is even more scary. The CVR stuff, yes, thats good for a lot of paranoia but airlines simply don't have the manpower to listen to every minute of every flight, or even a reasonable percentage of them. Especially not manpower skilled enough to know what should and should not be said and when. They'll use that stuff when they're targeting specific flights and already on a witch-hunt.. and they'll be successful.
FDR data on the other hand CAN be downloaded for every single flight and run through analysis software. Fly 251kts at 9999'? They'll know. Exceed stabilized airspeed criteria due to a momentary gust on approach and not go around? They'll know. Get an abnormal but momentary EICAS message that you, as the pilot decide is not an issue but not write it up? They'll know.
The point I'm trying to make is nobody flies a perfect flight. With CVR data, they'll have to spend a lot of time, effort, and money trying to show that otherwise perfect pilots aren't. With the FDR data in their hands, it'll be right there for everyone to see with a few mouse clicks. Perfect for them to start "fixing the glitch" with any pilots they want to eliminate, the FAA wants to violate, etc.
BUT... there hasn't been much talk at all about the fact that it also allows for FDR monitoring. I think this is even more scary. The CVR stuff, yes, thats good for a lot of paranoia but airlines simply don't have the manpower to listen to every minute of every flight, or even a reasonable percentage of them. Especially not manpower skilled enough to know what should and should not be said and when. They'll use that stuff when they're targeting specific flights and already on a witch-hunt.. and they'll be successful.
FDR data on the other hand CAN be downloaded for every single flight and run through analysis software. Fly 251kts at 9999'? They'll know. Exceed stabilized airspeed criteria due to a momentary gust on approach and not go around? They'll know. Get an abnormal but momentary EICAS message that you, as the pilot decide is not an issue but not write it up? They'll know.
The point I'm trying to make is nobody flies a perfect flight. With CVR data, they'll have to spend a lot of time, effort, and money trying to show that otherwise perfect pilots aren't. With the FDR data in their hands, it'll be right there for everyone to see with a few mouse clicks. Perfect for them to start "fixing the glitch" with any pilots they want to eliminate, the FAA wants to violate, etc.
When controlled by the union aircraft data is very useful for safety and trend identification. FOQA is not FDR, but it's the same principle, and again when controlled and classified by the union, then it's a great safety tool.
