jc73drvr, I thought your "rant" is very informative, very familiar, and I somehow believe you have dealt with this first hand or have a close friend who is "living the nightmare" rather than "living the dream". You have some excellent ideas as well. At the present time I am an Inactive Member in good standing but when ever I return to work I think I will echo your ideas as loud as I can. I am a proud ALPA member and its not a perfect organization but what is. I am pi$$ed they cut off my magazine subscription. They said I could buy one at a discount though... Well if I was working I could pay for it intead of getting it for free!!! And while I am at it, does anybody remember the brochure they gave us in Flight School? You know, the one showing the beachfront condos, free beer and dancing girls? Man, I want my money back. In twenty five years I have not seen any of that!!!! Although, in Shanghai, beer is very cheap and so is the 20 year old smoking hot hooker drinking them with you... Thats what hear anyway. Ciao, L

The best choice I made was some 20 years ago when America West went bankrupt the first time. Some say I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but being an optimist, I say I was at the right place at the right time. Within 2 weeks of taking voluntary leave, I was offered a position overseas training pilots for a start up 737 operation.

I had my trepidations about it, but knew I would be able to return with my recall rights. I knew I was an airplane ride away from home if things did not work out. I’ve been overseas all these years with the exception of 6 years. The contracts have been with reputable companies too. True, as a contracting pilot, your next flight may very well be your last flight. By the grace of the Sky Gods, to date, I’ve been fortunate to fly out the term of my contracted periods without layoffs, hassles, interference with QOL, or pay. I know it’s a lot easier when you don’t have a family in tow. However, when you have children with their future to consider, a mortgage, and other expenses to pay, overseas employment may not just be an alternative, but a necessity to survive.

Let’s face it the days of yore in aviation are extinct. IMHO, pilots nor unions no longer carry weight with the airlines as they did... and I doubt they ever will for the foreseeable future.

Have you walked the terminals lately? Do so… take note of ashen faces of some of those commuting crew dogs. They are either going home or returning to work after perhaps 1 or 2 full days home with the family which was probably less than fun… thenwondering if they can the jump seat to or from work. Will they have to spend the night in the terminal because they missed the last flight home or to work? That’s not the way it was 20 years ago. So you have low pay… crappy working conditions… cross country commutes to work… little or no employee benefits. Can anyone enlighten me for what?

At the end of the day, unemployment benefits are going to run out. Religious institutions can dole out so much. So what then?

On the plus side, a job can be had overseas if one has 500 PIC on ATRs or Dash 8’, and the “Q” aircraft. Monthly salaries of about $8,500 per, plus housing and R/T travel is not uncommon. That’s more money than some captains make flying the 737, 757, 767 and DC-10s for US supplemental carriers.

Last few pages
 

The last few pages of this thread are some of the best I have ever read here on APC.

Skyhigh

SH,

Cue"Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley.....

The raw emotion and comments from those most affected by the turmoil and turbulence in this industry gives you the sense that this is "some of the best I have ever read here on APC" Wow, what a downer. Not to ignore reality, but that the pain and anguish is 'the best' for you says it all.

Never mind the majority who find success' because those do not support your world view of professional aviation.

Wallowing in the pain and dirty laundry is good?
Anyway,
Cheers and Beers brother
SD

The questions I ponder the most, is simply, why don't we as a group of professional airline pilots band together and do our best to change things.

Here's what I mean, there are a dozen or so unions that represent in our industry. If we solicited our unions to improve the things that matter to us as a whole then our industry could stand the chance of improvement for every airline pilot.

Look at the group that represents doctors (the AMA). They do a pretty good job within their profession. How many doctors do you see furloughed? How many doctors work for very low wages. Not trying to say we are the same but they are represented as a whole, not just individual sects.

If we as a group, help our industry, we help ourselves. I think that if we just throw the burden on the unions and our companies to improve things, then we really aren't setting up for any real sucess. It does take a group effort to improve things.

I really hope that more furloughed pilots find flying jobs so they don't have to become truck drivers.

By the way, I have heard that Vision is not a bad place to work, pay and benefits are left up for decision, but I have heard they have a good bunch of pilots and the flying is good.

jc I wish I could get some solid info on how to get a resume in the right hands. They start service to Destin Florida from CAE (home) in April, plus alot of other destinations from Destin/Ft Walton Beach/Valparaiso. Might be the ground floor of something good or a fun place to hang out til better days. If you know anyone there that could PM me with more info, I would be very grateful. L

Doctors don't really "work" for a company, for the most part they are self employed, business owners, or partners in a practice. It's really not a group of workers.
After years of working for an airline that was ALPA, I realized (as most of you know, but fail to believe) that they have no real influence on pay, benefits, or keeping your job for that matter. When I was furloughed, ALPA did nothing to try to stop the furloughs at my company. No part time lines, no reduced lines, nothing that saved anyone. Yet, after a year and a half furlough and a recall, they were sending me letters saying I owed them money. Really? Yeah, I'll get right on that.
Pilots need to realize that we are not a blue collar group of workers. We are skilled professionals. Unions were designed to protect blue collar workers. They worked for safety in the workplace and fair wages for their members. They went to the companies and negotiated these things. If they did not get what they wanted, they called for their members to strike. This put strain on the company until they negotiated further. ALPA is not a union, ALPA is an organization. It cannot negotiate wages, and it can't call for a strike. It may try to protect you if you mess up and get a violation or have an accident, but in day to day life, it has no pull.

I saw mentioned here a few times that "At least you won't have to be a truck driver." Well, I have always made a great salary as a tractor trailer driver. It pays way more than any regional out there. When I was furloughed, I got hired at a company where I worked Monday to Friday and brought home double what I did at my airline on third year pay! Why did I come back to flying? I enjoy it. In fact, I love flying. There, I said it! And when you love something, it's not really work. I enjoyed driving and the freedom of being out on your own, but I love flying. And then, four months after getting recalled...they announced I'd be furloughed again within the year! What the heck!?! I just spent a year and a half looking all over the world for a flying job (literally all over the world) without one interview, gave up the good paying driving job to come back, now I'll be out again?

Stupid industry!

Back to the job search....but this time there were actually a few interviews! This time I had a choice between 3 flying jobs. I like to feel that I made the right choice, for me. I feel like I found a "new home" here at my new airline. I feel like someone said...I may be in on the ground floor and actually move up. After four years at my other airline, where I was always upbeat, but negativity was all around me, I feel like everyone around me is upbeat and looking ahead to growth.
Everyone is different, and every flying job is different. Make the choice that makes you happy. If you don't find anything, it's not the end of the world to take a non-flying job. You need to do what you need to do, support yourself and your family. Don't sit at home on UI, on your computer once a day filling out online resumes for flying jobs, and accept nothing less. I know a guy who did that when he was furloughed, said "I won't instruct, I'm better than that now. I'm a regional pilot." Really? While your bills go unpaid and your family suffers?

If you're looking for a huge salary, the airlines are not the place you will ever find it. The best we can hope for is that ticket prices will rise to where they should be, fuel prices won't swing up and down at the whim of investors, and nothing like 9/11 ever happens again. Then, maybe airlines will share the wealth, and realize that the best safety feature in the aircraft is a well trained, well rested, well paid pilot.

Oh well, I'm ranting on...and I gotta go put on my work clothes now. In a few hours I'll look up at the stars and down at the cities below and I'll thank God that I can afford to do what I love. After a few hours, I'll be back at base. No overnights here:)

Doctors do work for companies, except we call them hospitals, clinics, and medical centers. True some doctors have private practices, but either way I can assure you they all are members of the AMA. Can you guess why?

ALPA is a Union , they do represent a workforce of professionals. They negotiate contracts concerning work rules and pay. They can authorize a strike. ALPA is also chartered by the AFL –CIO.

By the way, what are the qualifications,how long does the training take and how much does it cost to learn how to drive a truck in comparison to an airline pilot? I am not knocking truck drivers at all, but there is a difference right?

If you don’t believe me, google it.

Look where this thread has gone, simple inquiry about a 121 supplemental carrier, to a debate on why the industry is so messed up.
Sorry about that.....

This is PURELY because of supply and demand. And the AMA does an excellent job of controlling that. Ever read how hard it is to get into medical school. Why is that. Because the AMA sets the standards that they must pass to get in. And limits the slots available.

Hey Walt, here is the scary part that the general public does not know. Nurses must graduate with a 2.5 GPA. Doctors, while excellent grades are required to get in Medical School, a 1.0 GPA to graduate. Granted they still have to pass boards, but then they do Residency in some small town literally DYING to get Doctors and about 5 years later, they are treating the rest of us. Please do not try to debate this. I KNOW. Just for informational purposes.:)

They certainly don't act like a union. Most real unions work in solidarity with other trades/professions. However, ALPA couldn't care less.

Majority?
 

Salty,

In my experience it is not a majority at all. Of my graduating class of 20 from college only two are still flying. Of my flight instructing buddies none are still flying. Of the regional friends who I have who are still employed as pilots most are only barely holding it together with the hope that something better will come along in the future.

I was laid off and could not find another flying job. I think theses posts show the raw hardship that is aviation for most.

Skyhigh

Sounds like someone has some pretty smart friends :)

There is no question why the industry pay is messed up. What can we do to change it? All pilots, in solidarity, stop flying? It'll never happen. Senior guys look at the low pay of new guys and say "So? I paid my dues. You should too." They would never risk losing their job or seniority to help the "cause" of bringing pay up.
You are correct on the driver vs pilot training. Both have a quick way in (driving school or 0 time to cockpit schools) Just because you go to a school to learn the "basics" doesn't mean you're any good. Starting pay for a trash truck driver in NYC is around $62K a year, plus overtime. Starting pay for a first year FO, based in JFK...around $20K. Hmmm, something is wrong. I agree. ALPA can negotiate all they want, if the company doesn't want to pay, they won't, and ALPA will agree or the pilots will go years without a contract while they negotiate (like Pinnacle). Either that, or ALPA will agree to lower pay if there is a promise of better schedules or new planes...then that stuff never comes (Comair).
So, ALPA can negotiate like you say, but (I believe) they have no leverage in the negotiations.

I don't need to "Google" it. I've done both jobs for a long time. I know the training, I know the pay, I know the QOL.

Anyway, I hope that Vision does well. It is always nice to see an airline grow, and maybe give some pilots a job. Every airline started small and grew. Some failed, some made it, some became "Legacy" carriers. As for "low cost carriers"...SWA was small once, and so was Allegiant. They are both doing well.

.......................

Now that I think about it, Thank god for the "English Proficient" endorsement on the pilot licence, Because with out that, we would all be hurting for work.

Porque? No te gusta sus amigos del sur?

100% right, Emilio! You'vre cracked the code.

I agree with that as well, the one big short coming is that some unions representing airline pilots, lack the solidarity within our profession as a whole.
Ramp Agents at our airline are represented quite well by their union. The make pretty good salaries, have excellent representation, and have a great contract. Although the work is different than being an airline pilot, I can tell you this, they make more money than what most pilots at regionals will make annually. The benefits for medical, dental, 401K, profit sharing are far better than what most airlines offer their employees. QOL is not bad either.

I don't want to compare ramp agents to pilots, but merely point out that with a good union you can get really good terms in your workforce. Some Airline Pilot unions have dropped the ball on things that have a strong effect on our profession. The Airline Pilots Unions have played a HUGE part in improving safety, and other significant areas, but they have been quite weak for improving pay, benefits and labor contract negotiations over the years.

Sooo, any info on vision airlines as far as jobs/hiring? a 1000 hour guy told me vision contacted him for Dorniers out of ATL.

The Do-328 guys are based in SDF and VPS. There is no pilot base in ATL. Vision just had a class finish up IOE, and another class in ground school now. I believe the last class was all 737, the current class is 328 and 737.

LowLevel,

Do you know if they are still hiring or how to apply? I've been checking the job openings on their website for the past few months and have not seen an opening for pilots.

At least half of the D328/B737 pilots are coming from the orange site...

Thanks, but where is the other half coming from? I'm not a big fan of those pay-to-apply sites.

The other half are all internal recs.

What about for the D228?

The 228's are all in Vegas, doing the Grand Canyon stuff. There was a class with 228 guys in the fall of 2010. Not sure if they are looking for anyone in those right now.

I think I heard about that class, I just wish I knew how I could apply for that position.

I'm pretty sure that class was all people from the Vegas job fair and internal recs.
If you live in Vegas, maybe just stop in and drop off a resume and see what happens.

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I'm pretty far from Vegas, but I'll be traveling there soon so maybe I'll stop by.

Anyone with the current payscale for Vision? Looking to see what the 767 will pay.

Those are the 767s that don't exist, right?

Somewhat. There's at least 1 767 flying in the full Vision colors. Last I saw it was doing Brazil charters out of Orlando-Sanford.

I have a friend that flies the white 767s and he gets paid well north of 200K. He was making around 150K as FO. You need a Security Clearance for the flying he was doing.

767 hiring for the Vision painted 767, not the invisible ones.
Heard a rumor they were looking to buy more too.

As anyone been called from this last app. window?

What's going on at Vision?
 

Anybody know what's going over at Vision? Looks like service is down to GPT-PIE. Is it a dying animal that needs to be put down??

They pulled out of VPS (was a hub) and according to our local news, still owes the airport authority a bit of $

Got a call yesterday to interview for a 73 FO spot. Can't find very much information on pay, QOL, days off, bases, things like that. (Yes, I know pay and QOL won't be great, just looking for specifics). Latest information on this thread is 4 years old. Also does anyone know how the PEX load factors have been, i.e. are they making any money.

Virtual airline! Run! Starting an airline and outsourcing the entire thing is a CEOs wet dream. Everyone is hiring right now. Stay away from this kind of trash