This is easily the dumbest comparison of contracts that I've ever seen on an internet forum, and that's really saying a lot. :rolleyes:

You do realize that those guys at World are flying MD-11s and 747-400s, right? A little bit different than an Airbus crammed with leisure class seats. And then of course there's the fact that World only gets a 65 hour guarantee. As for per diem, their flying is 90% international. That per diem rate for international is less than stellar.

Yes, and your buddy made it. You should quote him...

THANK YOU MR. 767 PILOT. FINALLY SOME SENSE HERE!!! THE SIGNING BONUS WE GOT WAS OFFENSIVE TO SAY THE LEAST. I VOTED NOOOOOO....

Depending on the amounts, I like a "signing bonus" system over a straight "retro pay" based on pay/credit.

Given the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY TO DIVIDE AMONG THE PILOTS:

With a signing bonus system you get a pro rata share of of the money and all FO's/CA's are rewarded evenly.

In a "retro pay" system, guys who were more willing to "help the company" and spend less time with their families and hobbies are REWARDED for helping prolong negotiations.

I'll take the signing bonus any day, b/c I don't do the company favors during negotiations. YMMV.

Hey Palmtree Pilot,
I'm not here to flame, but I talked to a world guy a while ago and don't remember much about your work rules. Is it true that world gives your one day off in seven wherever you happen to be in the world at the time? How many days off are you guaranteed? What are your favorite parts of your contract? I'd like to compare. Again, not flaming, just tring to learn.

Sorry, Sailor.
You're the one that is acting like Patty. The "don't like it, go somewhere else" line is classic management speach. I suspect you're pretty new around here, I hope you learn to respect the pilots that has been here for awhile and is working hard to make this an airline worth working for.

If you don't like the attitude, maybe you should go back to your previous job (flight instructor?)

Sorry Balder, no mngt here, 12 yrs only line flying and go back to FI. I dont see your point. But you are are showing plenty of respect.

Sorry if my comment offended you, but this gent cant stop bashing hard working union members and NC members from his OWN AIRLINE, maybe he's just not happy here.

Cheers.

Nobody is bashing hard working union members. It's perfectly OK to comment on the TA numbers and data presented here, whether you're an insider or outsider.
Reality is that our TA is just one small step in the right direction. The reason why this contract ratified to 74% might be because most of us realize we can't get all the way in one contract. I'm pretty sure a lot of yes-voters are actually dissappointed and would have liked a larger step considering the powerful leverage our strike action gave us.
It is inappropriate to brag about a great accomplishment. We got a long ways to go.

Min days off between trips...
 

So if I bid nothing but 2 day trips, I always get 4 days off between trips? Sounds like a good deal or a scheduling nightmare.

..................

Wow, those PIC rates are lower than Airtrans 10 year old contract!!!!

Why did you let them put in RAP.....it sxucks....

"*Reserve RAP shifting (new, and non-existent in any other pilot contract):"

What does this mean? At Frontier, we can move reserve days around...sort of.

We can't move the reserve days around. The company can. :mad:

Ditto. The reward we received related to the risk we took seems disporportionately small, but 74% of us decided that our team got all that was available.

I doubt that many, if any, people commenting on here have any experience actually working in the nego process. It ain't as easy as it appears on the internet.

Skybolt, THANK YOU, absolutely spot on.

You know, you are absolutely correct skybolt. It is called NEGOTIATIONS for a reason!

Most of us were hopeful that the DOS pay would be much higher. I was not, however, willing to vote for an agreement that traded my 4 days off or pref bidding for a large pay increase. Given that the pay comes up to where I wanted it to be over the life of the contract, AND I get to keep those QOL protections, I would say the NC did their jobs well. Our new contract doesn't provide us with instant satisfaction, but I think we end up at DOS+4 with one of the best CBA's in the industry.

Take this as a learning experience. The longer you in the Airline Industry, the more you will learn that money talks and BS walks. You got fooled into believing that 4 days off actually costs the company money. It doesn't, you got played by the best anti-labor law organization in the country. Why do you think they purposely took it away 2 years ago when it was a blatantly illegal against the written contract? They played psychological warfare with you and they won. They knew it would completely freak you out and then they attached a monetary value to it and bam....I wouldn't get too excited about 4 year pay my friend....ooopsss, i said too much...

Wrong Skybolt, the majority of the guys i talked to and flew with were very disappointed with the TA. They all voted yes because they were scared of the unknown. The bar is right where it was maybe a little lower. unbelieveable!

As for the nego process, I have been on that side before, it's not fun. But, when you have the company by the balls, u keep tugging until you get whats needed.

Well put. The men and women of Spirit deserve our thanks and appreciation for standing up for their (and OUR) profession. It would have been great if they had gotten everything on their wish list but they did move forward. Let's hope the next group has the backbone to follow in their footsteps and move the profession forward.

I tend to agree with that, CptScott, and with FLEXs comments, as well. And I have nothing but praise for our NC/MEC guys. But by the time of our CBAs DOS+4 I hope other airlines have moved far beyond it.

As far as "NEGOTIATIONS" is concerned, it could be said that our management did not actually negotiate in earnest until the 11th hour. How do we prevent them from playing us for 3 1/2 years next time around?

I think the best strategy if for all pilots to get on p90x....that way when negotiations come around we can truly bring it. Who is going to argue with us when we're ripped out of our minds like Tony Horton? Who's with me?

That and everybody does the Dave Ramsey financial course, it'd show we can "bring it" and that we're not afraid to "eat rice and beans" while we do it!!:D

So negotiations are always based on average. How do you suppose SWA (or any better than average paid carrier) got what they got??? Hmmm.

Yeah, Let me know how that works out once they start the RED/GREEN monkey motion. Goodbye float.

TA passed, get over it, move on.

I have an opinion and I will express it. You like this POS, great, glad your happy. All your name calling and arrogant "move on" talk aside, I challenge you to tell me where I'm wrong. And don't give me any of that "Join the NC next time" crap either, it doesn't flush.

I did my ALPA time, and dealt with all the baseless BS that a pilot group can come up with. I am well aware you could get a million dollar bonus for a pilot group, and somebody is going to complain because they have to carry a suitcase of 20's to their car). I have expressed reasoned dissent on many issues with this TA, now CBA, and have received no intelligent rebuttal. All I hear is "Get over it", "Join the NC", or other sophomoric commentary.

Now that you have me worked up, how about the sales job done by your MEC? I went to the road show, hoping for honest information. What I found was a deliberate sales job, not unbiased information regarding the then TA. Examples available on request.

Rod, you are working yourself up and it isn't healthy. If the great majority of this group thought like you we would be back on the picket line, or God knows where. But 76% is a big number of people that can live with the contract.

But challenging co-workers now doesn't help the cause. We do need to MOVE ON, and think about the next round.

I went to 2 of the road shows, and I don't remember seeing or talking to guys that left confused or with unanswered questions.

Not worth it going all nuts about it. I hope you find your peace man.

Cheers.

A good part of that 74% were scared into a yes vote by the doom and gloom sales job of the MEC and Mr. Luby. The specter of "What if" scared the crap out of people. A lot of the vocal yes guys won't answer simple questions, like why would a top notch attorney with 30 years in labor law, not put a contingency clause into the back to work agreement, defining what happens if the TA fails? FEAR MONGERING.

Next round? That's NINE years from now.

As far as the road shows, I hoped for unbiased, truthful information on the pros / cons of the TA. All I got was SPIN. When I asked about the Green/Red system and how it may cause float black-out dates (not allowed under last cba) or how it will effectively make float at company discretion (not 10% like last cba); all I got was spin on how RED on RED trades will be allowed if a net drop occurs on a higher coverage day (helps the company) than the pickup. **THEY COULD DO THIS BEFORE, swaps were completely at company discretion. Instead of discussion on this, they spent 10 min on some clown that wanted to know if his hostage benefits would continue if he turned 65 while a hostage. Not kidding, it happened.

I was particularly put off by the MEC parading some poor useful idiot from JBLU up there, in uniform, to give us the grass isn't greener speech. After which ARM asked (knowing full well the answer) "Hey Rob, do you guys have a 401K over there?". To which Rob dutifully responded "Yes, they match 5%". The obvious take-away being Gee, I have 8% now, going to 9% in 4 years! Wa-Hoo, we have a better deal then they do!!!!

ARM neglected to mention in front of the group that jblu pilots receive a 5% BONUS in there 401K annually. Poor Rob, trying to recover from this, said yes, but some of our guys reach the 401K contribution limit because of this. Are you kidding??????? SPIN!

So, either ARM didn't know about the bonus, or just wanted to conceal that fact. So the choice is, he is either incompetent or disingenuous - you make the call. Either way, he lost what little respect he had left with me.

He didn't mention the jblu ESOP either... SPIN

Cheers

SWA became the highest paid by default... don't you remember all the Chp 11's after 9/11? or where you working on your private then?

Ok, Jr. I was here at NK, while you were flying the river north departure; and trying to help with contract 2003 - til they went weak.

If we all strive for the middle of the pack, we will ALL end up in the middle of the pack, and that is not a good place to spend your career. Unless your a socialist, then everybody being the middle of the pack is the goal, and socialist utopia.

Enjoy!