I agree completly. I am 37 I fly a Gulfstream 450 for great money and I would give it up for my dream job (Delta) in a heartbeat.

As far as hiring booms within the next 5 or so years, given retirements and assume a strong economy, which airline is most likely offer the best option for a new pilot in terms of fast progression up the seniority list? AMR?

Heyas,

FWIW, you can hit all the "sweet spots" in your career and still came up short. It's still largely a matter of luck.

I had my CFI and ~300 hours TT three weeks after I graduated from college. Did my CFII and MEI ratings 6 months after that. Had my contacts all lined up in the pipline, and what "should have happened" was I do my 15-18 months instructing, get that check run job, do that for 6-10 months for multi time, and nail that commuter job by 22-23. Do that for 12 months, upgrade, get 1000 PIC and be on a major at 25, right?

Wrong. Instructed for 3 years thanks to Gulf War I/Recession #1. As soon things started picking up, got a job at commuter #1. QoL was horrible, so after upgrading and putting a notch in that stick, left to go for Commuter #2. with a much better QoL, but totally stagnant list with bitter, miserable people. Sat there for 5 years.

Still wound up at a major...barely by 30...1 month to 31...but still 2nd youngest in class.

Things were good, three digit pay rate in year 3, fully paid insurance, fully funded retirement, going to retire in the double digits and was told I'd upgrade in 5 years (at 35-36). Ahh, salvation at last, right?

Wrong. Then 9/11, Gulf War II, Bankruptcy, age 65, merger, recession #2. Going on 43, and no upgrade in sight, managed to keep my seat, but got slammed on forward movement and now looking at retiring in the four digits with the added bonus of having to go another 5 years to get there.

The moral of this story:

1) DON'T get hung up on "the gateways", because even if you hit them just right, totally unanticipated events can still screw you.

2) Enjoy where you are. Don't go through life being a miserable tool just because your career progression isn't where you think it should be. Get a hobby or something you enjoy.

Nu

As an example.

Look up any and all posts by Skyhigh.

Agree with you 100%. The hiring wave is more important than age. I got hired at TWA at 23 and UAL at 24 and both equate to being furloughed 10+ years later.

...and so if you read the above, you can gather some very good advice:

1) Stay healthy, and stay happy for the long term. It's not a sprint, but a marathon.
2) You certainly can be ambitious: create (and take) any opportunity to get a seniority number at an airline that you value. Paddle hard early, then ride the first hiring wave in the set.
3) Once you get to where you were going, stay there. Don't make a bunch of lateral moves trying to second-guess the future of any given company.
4) Don't worry about things you can't control. Like your age.


Good luck!

The best age is the age you get hired.

I like Nu, had the whole progression held for about six year, but in the end so what. It is life. Network, do what you can from very young and use every contract and every resource you can. Networking and a clean work history get you hired at a major. It is not time alone.

At US Airways, you should start right out of kindergarden, that way you have a fairly good chance at the left seat prior to the 65 years old rule. Sorry, couldn't resist :)

I started in 1978 at age 22.
Seniority wise, it has been rewarding however I have always felt as though I missed alot of fun by not flying in the military.
Guess its a trade off. If I could go back I would do it again.
I'd say the sooner the better.
CG

I was 30 when AA hired me in 2001, and I'm now, 3 airlines later (two out of business), I'm 41 and still waiting for them (or anyone else) to hire me....

If I had to do it again, I'd have become a scientist.

an evil Scientist?

yes, with a focus on curing the world of airline CEO's and managers

How did you become 11 years older in 9 years?

doh!!!!! :)

kids? :)

Well, I was 31 actually and with the way my birthday falls that would be how. Picky picky.

Thanks again, everyone. So many great posts with great advice! I'd quote a few but don't know how to use that feature, unfortunately. Overall, it appears I should just focus on getting to a Major when able and be content with whatever age that ends up at. I certainly won't mind what age, I just want the job. But, of course, I'd prefer 30 or circa that time. Until then, I definitely plan on busting my buttocks off so I can eventually sit in the cockpit of an American Airlines jet, getting paid to fly it. Yes, as crazy as it sounds, AA is my dream spot. We'll see what happens.

As for now, getting through college is the goal. How crazy am I for majoring in Flight as well? I'm dual degree for ATC as my back up though, so don't hassle me too much!! (I say that because I've read a few other forums and the debate gets quite heated!).

Quick question: is it possible to go from a Part 135 cargo type of job to a Major or does one have no choice but to go to a Regional? What Regional are you guys/gals fans of?

Thanks again.

Now we HAVE to get an Industry Leading contract... wouldn't want to disappoint our boy P Spence!

Side note... AA was also always my "Numero Uno" in my wish list (this list was active in the mid/late 90s during my flight training when AA was THE airline to be at. Not quite so anymore...) Bases, equipment, and fun guys to fly with... seemed like a great place. Still is, in many respects. The pilot group here is tops. And I was lucky enough to hire on in the middle of the last hiring wave at age 26 after only 1.5 years at a regional (ACA) ... Timing, timing, and luck! That said.. the first Major to hire you is usually the best... however.... you won't know that until you retire from it!

Good luck, see you here soon/
73

I had planned to get to a major (legacy now) by 30. I missed it by 15 years, but now am happy to be here.

You'll most likely need PIC time unless you're very well connected, (or extremely lucky) so whichever one has a shorter upgrade. It might not pay as well as others but you have to ask yourself, "what's my goal". To work for a good regional or try and get to a major as fast as you can. Just try and make it better while you're there. I just wouldn't be the guy to go to an alter ego airline though.

I'm not a fan of any of them. I've worked at three and they all stink.

You have to enjoy the trip - The destination is less important.

When I got furloughed after 9/11 I had a bunch of SWA friends say come on over and I told my wife that it was either Delta or find another career. Looking pretty good right now even though I may never be a Captain. I enjoy what I do, don't kill myself with a schedule (live within my means) and when I hit 65 will be able to enjoy doing whatever I decide to do next (although I want to have enough money to buy something small to get up in the air once in while). Life is too short to be miserable doing anything you spend 1/3 to 1/2 of each year doing. Enjoy the journey.

Really?!? The long haul? Get out while your still young! BAM! Right in the kisser!

Not. Going. To. Happen. Especially with the recent focus on low time pilots flying people around. Sorry.

<P></P>
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This aspiring airline pilot specifically asked for no negative comments (I'm sure he or she has heard them all) but you just couldn't resist. I'll bet you're fun to fly with!

PSpence, if it's your dream, go for it with all you've got, the sooner the better For every class you are ahead of the next you will be rewarded for your entire career! If it turns out that its not for you, you'll be smart enough to know and make your own life changes I'm sure. The worst thing one can do is to stay in a career where they are miserable in their work making all their coworkers suffer their cynycism and negativity. Some woul rather complain than fix.
It may not be the job right now that it once was but neither are the rest of the careers in corporate America, and I, for the first time in many many years am optimistic about the future of our profession. Many things are on the horizon (improving economy, changing rest requirements, 1500 hr rule for 121 etc) that may finally and truly create a pilot shortage improving our bargaining position tremendously enableing us to recover much that was taken.
There will be frustration in any career that you choose but I can assure you, weather your passion is fixing cars, coaching sports, cutting hair or flying airplanes, if you do for a living what you enjoy you will never have to work.
CG

AA at 26 going on 27, now 38. Scheduled to retire at #22.

It has been a wild ride, I still enjoy the flying, and would not change anything. Flying for the airlines is more than just a job, it is a lifestyle. Look at all the people on this forum, many with days off talking about.......Flying.

You may see many people *****, but they are still here.. Why?

I would like to see many improvements in our contract, however I recently sat down with an old childhood friend who is a Pediatrician. I grossed slightly more than him, and worked half the hours. We talked about our jobs, and he said he was a little envious. Primarily because he said I and another airline pilot he knows has such a passion and love for aviation. That is lacking in some many people doing so many different jobs.

You will ALWAYS find someone that makes more than you, even in some of the most peculiar jobs... However do what you enjoy in life, do what fulfills you. Money does not make the man (or women) nor does it buy happiness.

Tailwinds,

AA

The job
 

It seems to me that in the past flying was a means to an end. Now it must encompass the main focus of your life to remain happily in the saddle. I was always about the stuff that happens between trips when you are at home.

Every year it seems that the airlines want more TAFB and offer less in wages. I want a life more than a career. In ten years the airlines will be made up mostly of young single studio apartment living aviation monks. If it isn't there already.

Skyhigh

I live in a beautiful home in upstate NY near the Finger Lakes. I still have 15+ days off a month, and enjoy teaching in J-3s on my days off as GA is still a passion for me. There is plenty of money to live very well and do the things I want to do.

Sorry it did not work out for you, however I personally would not change anything. Out the door to enjoy one of my days off. Enjoy your day off complaining about what you never achieved.

The AAflyer:cool:

I can understand
 

Sure, anyone who was hired by a major airline in the 1990's most likely will ride off into the sunset with a pretty good deal. However the rest who follow will not have it as good.

We are all very happy for you however it is not an accurate representation of what the pilots of the future will experience. New pilots need to know that your level of success is not commonly available anymore.

Skyhigh

P.S. I also enjoy living in a nice home in the country and get most of the year to do with what I please. I am home every night and own a Cessna 150 to fly for fun. I freelance instruct a bit when I feel like it. However none of the lifestyle that I enjoy today came from my airline career though I wish it did. It would have been much easier to have gotten a good flying job early on.

Completely agree. The problem is that there are people willing to go fly 757's for 85k a year from the left seat and then complain that the airlines want more TAFB and offer less in wages. Maybe if people didn't take those jobs they would be forced to pay more. It's a strange concept but if people continue to take those jobs, then that trend will continue.

Agreed
 

I completely agree. Don't forget regional FO's for 18K or legacies that are running 18 years to upgrade. The industry is rife with conflicts. Pilots need to stop showing up for work.

Skyhigh

I hear this more and more, that "if people would just stop taking these jobs, then............" Fact is, there always have been and will always be people taking these types of jobs for these salaries and working conditions. It's simple human nature. If there's a fix for human nature, well then you just may have a cure.

Pilots don't need to stop showing up for work they just need to change the way they've done things. One of those things is that maybe they need to get together and fight rather than fight separately. Unfortunately pilots continue to do the same thing over and over and over expecting different results. Isn't that the definition of insanity?

There are fixes out there but people don't want to address them. One reason is that we might actually have to take some of the blame for what's happened rather than just blame management and others.

i blame jersey shore!

I bet YOUR a blast to fly with. I'm just pointing out the fact that it will be almost impossible for this kid to make it to a major with the time frame he has set for himself.

Im going to have to agree with SkyHigh on this thread....

Insanity?
 

You are right. Doing the same thing over and over again is insanity. However some pilots get out of aviation entirely to build a real life for themselves. :)

Correction: It should read, "Most pilots will eventually get out of aviation to build a real life for themselves". It is my belief that most attrition today is from pilots who are leaving the profession.

Skyhigh

You didn't mean "you're," the contraction of "you are" did you? Man, this attitude displayed is why furloughed guys have that "pilot" label wrapped around them with the negative connotation. Always willing to give an opinion without paying attention to the details.

The original poster can get where he wants to go in the time frame he wants if he works hard, networks relentlessly and enjoys a little luck. I was not hired at a regional until age 26, but had an opportunity to interview at a rapidly expanding LCC at age 28. Unfortunately I did not due to some conflicts. I then got comfortable for a few years, got on with a great company with 15 days off a month from the start, 2008 happened and my supposedly "fast upgrade" turned into a furlough. That was at age 35. I am now 38 and hired recently by a major that still has decent expansion plans. The point is I chose my path.

As an example, thousands of pilots have made good career moves in the last decade by choosing places like Jet Blue, Virgin America, AirTran, and Delta. It appears now that United and Continental may not have been bad moves. Anyone who went to NetJets before 2005 has made out like a bandit. As always, Southwest is a great company to work for even though their growth appears to be stagnating.

There is always opportunity somewhere in aviation. The main mistake pilots make is thinking that the airline with the best deal and working conditions will always be the best. History of the industry shows differently. While it is a gamble, getting hired by the airline with a decent wage scale and decent work rules and room to expand their market share will make for a richer and better QOL over the career of a pilot. He may make 15% less top out rate for equipment, but he got that 60% raise making left seat in half the time and reaped the seniority awards of better schedules to go with that money.

Always look for the clear spaces. It is a rare occasion the radar screen is red in all directions.

Choose your path
 

I bet you would have chosen to have been gainfully employed at a young age at the airline of your dreams. We all would have. Aviation is not about decisions but luck and circumstances.

In 1990 UPS and SWA were places that pilots went when they could not get hired by a real airline like UAL, AA, NWA and DAL. Now they are on top, but no one would have guessed that in 1990.

Who here can accurately guess which airlines will still be around ten years from now? Those who are on top today most likely will be the industries sad story tomorrow. The only choice a pilot can make is how much abuse are they willing to take waiting for the mysterious hand of aviation to make their dreams come true.


Skyhigh