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Bottom line is that the Delta pilots are sending way to much money to ALPA National. This money could be better spent improving the lives of Delta pilots, not helping the numerous smaller (regional) pilot groups.
It's the Delta pilots money, why not spend it responsibly? ALPA has lost sight of the big picture imo and it's not helping us out. We have a union that is largely bark without any bite. I don't see how a new union could be worse that what ALPA already is. |
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
(Post 873267)
Scope
You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop. |
Originally Posted by chuck416
(Post 873299)
ACL65,
I have agreed with practically every post I've ever read that had your name on it...however...this is the one notable exception. I don't presume to know what the answer is, but anybody who has been in this business more than a few years KNOWS that mainline flying has been continuously eroded, year-over-year, since at least 1990. The very first exception in my memory for ANY regional/commuter airline was with A/A, that allowed for a limited number of 19 seat aircraft to "probe the market" in BNA. Next thing you know, they buy up the carrier Simmons Airlines in ORD, where they operate 36 seat Shorts, and 46 seat ATR-42s. Then it was an exception to operate the ATR-72, then along comes the jungle jet, and Canidaire regional, and now we have the 90 seaters. I reiterate, I do not know what the answer is, but it really torques me when I see significant city pairs completely, (yes, completely) handed over to ASA, Comair, etc, etc, etc. If they wanna' fly MEM-TUP, or MSP-LSE, or DFW-GSP, that's one thing. To fly DTW to Monterrey, Mexico (yes, that's our "code-share regional partner" that does/used to fly that route) that is not "regional airline flying". Our two airlines used to have a combined list of somewhere around 13,000-14,000 pilots. I know factually that the north side at one time had 5,600, you south guys can fill in the rest. I'm not advocating "try something, even if it's right" approach. But we're all aware that ALPA's approach has been an unmitigated catastrophe. Ideas? Anyone? Chuck MEMRAT on the head of the union. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
Chuck;
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA. The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic. The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue. The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it. All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change) As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward. A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time: 1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them. (The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.) 2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys? Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth. 3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation) I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences." In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle. These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat. In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer. It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service. We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it. We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means. |
How quickly can a new independent union get on the property? Can we really collect enough money to support our 2012 negotiations? Will we have enough money for a strike fund? The company will REALLY test the new union and try to break it. Can we really be prepared for such a huge fight in just a couple years? I'm serious about these questions because I don't know the answers.
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Originally Posted by Free Bird
(Post 873366)
Bottom line is that the Delta pilots are sending way to much money to ALPA National. This money could be better spent improving the lives of Delta pilots, not helping the numerous smaller (regional) pilot groups.
It's the Delta pilots money, why not spend it responsibly? ALPA has lost sight of the big picture imo and it's not helping us out. We have a union that is largely bark without any bite. I don't see how a new union could be worse that what ALPA already is. |
T-Scope is important, imo the most important, but an important way to fix scope is with unity. I much prefer to recapture flying with a the help from a regional ALPA MEC who sees the benefit with a possible quid then to fight them and the corporation for said flying.
By not fixing the current mess, and throwing them to the wayside we will gain no points and probably create a few enemies in the process. I have looked long and hard at this issue. I was very vocal about a possible conflict a few years ago, but after much study, deliberation, and talking with many pilots with many different points of view, I came to the conclusion, that given where this industry is heading, protectionism will work great for a while, but for the long term it will leave us a lot worse off. IMO what DPA will do is probably protect the big jets, and at some time fail in SJS. I truly beleive that most majors cannot afford the necessary fleet renewal that they need to partake in. Because of this belief and the continued desire for consolidation that will continue across boarders it is imperative that we as a industry unite and not as separate special interest groups. I too have no stomach for scope sales and for catering to everyone's needs, but that is what happens when the "leader" of your association is not a visionary, nor leader. I do know that this election will determine the future of ALPA. We need someone that is willing to rock the boat a little and the current incumbent is not my answer. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873333)
Caddis, I do not think I am saying that ALPA does not have issues and needs to be fixed. What I am saying is that the issues are fixable and the unintended consequences are to great to take them lightly. There is a huge difference.
/rant OFF |
T;
That is not scare tactics, that is my own personal point of view. I look at Republic and see an airline and union that is not bound by ALPA's by-law's trying to weasel their way in to the Star Alliance. I can see SKW doing the same thing in Sky Team if we dump ALPA. I hope I am wrong, and will happily admit that I am down the road. If I am wrong I am fine with it. I will be pro delta pilot always. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 873364)
Still waiting for Mr. Prater to get off his butt and show up at an LEC meeting..... ANY LEC meeting at the world's largest airline with his agenda as to how he is going to "take back this profession"
|
Originally Posted by iceman49
(Post 873374)
If you would, please give some example of how we would better use the money. The only thing that management understands is leverage (how much power do we have by ourselves vs what we have now)...will going it alone help us if there is a strike. Not trying to start a food fight, but this discussion seems like what we here from the politicians...we will have fiscal resp, we will get better jobs, we will make the schools better, but when pressed for specifics they fall apart.
Besides, forget the inflatable rat, we could buy super premium sized inflatable sharks with laser beams! |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873376)
T-Scope is important, imo the most important, but an important way to fix scope is with unity. I much prefer to recapture flying with a the help from a regional ALPA MEC who sees the benefit with a possible quid then to fight them and the corporation for said flying.
By not fixing the current mess, and throwing them to the wayside we will gain no points and probably create a few enemies in the process. I have looked long and hard at this issue. I was very vocal about a possible conflict a few years ago, but after much study, deliberation, and talking with many pilots with many different points of view, I came to the conclusion, that given where this industry is heading, protectionism will work great for a while, but for the long term it will leave us a lot worse off. IMO what DPA will do is probably protect the big jets, and at some time fail in SJS. I truly beleive that most majors cannot afford the necessary fleet renewal that they need to partake in. Because of this belief and the continued desire for consolidation that will continue across boarders it is imperative that we as a industry unite and not as separate special interest groups. I too have no stomach for scope sales and for catering to everyone's needs, but that is what happens when the "leader" of your association is not a visionary, nor leader. I do know that this election will determine the future of ALPA. We need someone that is willing to rock the boat a little and the current incumbent is not my answer. What scares me about your posts is that you seem to be in favor of our dues money going toward some sort of mythical check valve wrt regional flying. I cannot believe you are serious when in practically the same breath you say that national doesn't negotiate away scope.. it is the majors' union. So again I ask... what is the purpose of Prater and Herndon? The highlighted paragraph above is confusing to me... care to expand? |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 873381)
The ONLY thing Prater is taking back is his promise to 'take it back'. The guy has done SQUAT in that regards, & next to zilch for everything else. :rolleyes: http://usera.ImageCave.com/Dr5115/brickwall.gif
All I ask is for him to show up. It's going on the second year??.. and he has yet to be seen. Why? |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873380)
T;
That is not scare tactics, that is my own personal point of view. I look at Republic and see an airline and union that is not bound by ALPA's by-law's trying to weasel their way in to the Star Alliance. I can see SKW doing the same thing in Sky Team if we dump ALPA. I hope I am wrong, and will happily admit that I am down the road. If I am wrong I am fine with it. I will be pro delta pilot always. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873380)
I look at Republic and see an airline and union that is not bound by ALPA's by-law's trying to weasel their way in to the Star Alliance. I can see SKW doing the same thing in Sky Team if we dump ALPA.
What is it in ALPA's by-laws that keeps a regional from joining an alliance? Why can't SKW join SkyTeam if the Delta pilots are ALPA, but they can join if we dump ALPA? |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873246)
Question:
Do you think the best way to solve the unity, and scope issues are to be 1) More divisive and 2) to either throw the regionals out of ALPA or create our own union which will not keep the regional airlines in line?
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873246)
The regionals within ALPA KNOW they cannot go after our flying or they will lose and lose big time.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873246)
They will lose our financial support and furthermore know that no attack on one of the mainline carriers PWA's/ CBA's within ALPA would be allowed.
Carl |
Originally Posted by MoonShot
(Post 873253)
Maybe we could get another thread going that would get comments from pilots that are part of a one-pilot group union? How well they like it, advantages vs. disadvantages, etc...? Who all are on their own: AA, SWA, UPS, __?
Carl |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873335)
BTW;
If you want to take back flying, 1) Vote someone in that will do make it part of the proposal, 2) Vote them out if they do not 3) vote them out if they approve it and send it to memrat, and 4) Do not look at the pretty dollar signs when you see the package that has a scope sale timed to it and vote yes. Each and every time there has been a further relaxation of scope it has been done with a MEMRAT vote. 1) Age 65, ALPA supported and pilots against. 2)New FTDT rules. ALPA supported and influenced, I think the vast majority are against. Age 65 should have been fought. New FTDT are not at all about safety. We now will fly 10 hrs. YGTBSM. ALPA opened the door when they proposed 9 hours. Why give them my 2%? Who needs enemies with friends like ALPA? Keep it in house and do what is best for Delta Pilots. Our leaders of an in-house union will also not promote an ALPA national agenda for political reasons or personal aspirations at ALPA national itself. My opinion, which is why I will be a definite supporter of DPA. Dawgs |
Originally Posted by chuck416
(Post 873360)
OK--I concede that point. Mark it up to dyslexia. Instead of 5600, maybe it was 6500. But that only exacerbates the issue. Not trying to start a firefight here. But it seems to me that the fight's already been on now for waay too much of everyone's careers. Steady erosion since Iraq War I, or there abouts. Except for bankruptcy, where it was wholesale slaughter.
Chuck Chuck, No fire fight here we are on the same side. My cynicism and sarcasm did not quite come through on my post. We have one backwards for too long and we need to stop. Right now in its present make up and direction ALPA is not working. Caddis |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 873256)
Delta Pilots Association - Home
If they want credibility, they need to tell us who they are. It looks like a perfectly honorable, above-board, by the book attempt at presenting the Delta pilots with a viable alternative to our current representation. The founders have no reason to hide. They are doing us all a badly needed service.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 873256)
For this effort to succeed, a trusted leader is going to be required. The Delta pilots aren't going to change unions based on a website.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 873256)
As it stands, the Delta pilots are not getting our money's worth out of our dues.
Carl |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873259)
I just state, be careful about unintended consequences about actions that are not well thought out.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 873256)
Emotion can be a very dangerous thing.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
(Post 873267)
Scope
You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop. Carl |
Originally Posted by iceman49
(Post 873294)
...its all about getting the right reps voted in.
Carl |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 873385)
I don't think most guys are unhappy with DALPA.. it's the national level that gets tiresome. With the federal gubbamint robbing everybody's future, I think we are all a little sick of funding Prater's retirement and really seeing nothing in return...
That right there is the bottom line. We are wasting millions supporting a bloated bureaucracy in Herndon. A bureaucracy that seems to exist only to perpetuate themselves and their lifestyles. Look at Babbitt and Woerth. Hardly the model of the volunteer line pilot. They've become very wealthy men off their ALPA National "careers". That building up there in D.C. no longer serves those of us paying the bills. I'll do without the glossy magazine. |
Originally Posted by caddis
(Post 873314)
I am not ready to send in the card yet, but I am ready to listen.
But while you're listening, be careful for people who spout things that don't pass your own personal logic test. Too many say things like: "it's complicated" and "I wish I could tell you all the things I've seen in confidence, then you'd agree with me about..." That's what people do when they don't have the facts on their side and try to push their own personal agenda. We all know the truth when we hear it, because it passes our own logic test. We all need to listen to it and we'll be OK. Carl |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
Chuck;
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA. The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic. The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue. The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it. All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change) As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward. A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time: 1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them. (The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.) 2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys? Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth. 3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation) I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences." In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle. These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat. In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer. It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service. We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it. We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means. Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 873392)
Regionals within ALPA have been going after and taking flying for over a decade now. Don't know how you could have missed that.
|
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 873377)
I disagree. I do not think these issues are fixable. It's just like Congress. the entrenched elite are never going to go away despite all the threats to the contrary. I cannot believe that you can really defend them.
But just to dig a little deeper... what is it exactly that we get from national that couldn't be had by writing a check? We need an ALPA attorney? they won't EVER turn money down.. I have yet to meet a lawyer that would. Aeromedical? I have used them and they really are a good bunch of people, but those services are not so unique that they cannot be duplicated here. I have worked with other pilots that are non-alpa and trust me you do not know what you have. Why are the executives payrates some kind of average of the MAJOR airlines that make up their constituency? Why not an average of ALL the highest paying airlines under their pervue? I'll bet his attitude would certainly change as to who is more important. How much of that gigantic MCF have the DAL pilots ever used? show me some of these things that make the national part of this association worthwhile and I will get on board. How are the DELTA pilots being supported by this bureaucracy? /rant OFF ALPA was founded on a lose association of pilot groups. To date that is true, but the perception is that ALPA National carrier a lot more power in regard to our negotiations than they really do. We are one of the two big behemoths in the room. I highly doubt that if we took back all of our flying with interview rights and or some sort of quid for the pilots effected that we would hear a peep out of any of them. The only reason the regional guys care remotely about their careers at the regional is that we as the mainline have done such a poor job of keep our side of the profession up. Give them a true reason to leave their safe regional job, and most would be more than willing to do so. Starting with better scope, pay, work rules, and benefits is a way to reverse that trend. If you can get part of that, the pendulum goes the other way. So answer your question, what are the benefit that ALPA has or a new relatively unknown association? 1) Name recognition: The power base knows the name and the number that go with it. 2) AFL-CIO affiliation. Like it or not that is very powerful 3) Numbers. There is always a fear in the fact that ALPA represents over 55K pilots. 4) Legal Support for you the line pilot when you get in trouble. Get in trouble and you will swear by them. 5) Aeromed; Again worth its weight in gold. Have a heart attack and do not have the influence that ALPA has at the FAA and you may be SOL with getting an SI. Trust me this is very important to all of us no just the old farts :D 6) MCF: Lots of money. It sill there is one needs it. There are commitments to the MCF, but to date there is still plenty in there if we need it. 7) The rest of the ALPA pilots would more than likely support us with a assessment if it ever came to it, with DPA you will have to asses yourself. Never been tested here, but ask the NWA brethren about this. 8) International affiliation with IFALPA: I have gone over this in detail in other posts, but do not discredit its influence on a future merger with AF/KLM. Also do not discredit our influence on ICAO 9) JS committee. You are a commuter. This team of pilots makes sure that abuses are to a minimum and that your privileges are not lost. 10) Security: You have no idea what these guys do on a national level for each and every pilot day in and day out. Lets just say, they have a bigger impact than you can imagine. DPA would have to fight to get the access these guys have. 11) Safety: What you see in the press is not what you are getting. What really occurs, occurs behind the scenes. Ask your safety chair in NYC, the guy who is running for FO rep. He can give you a glimpse of what they get to be a party of. 12) FAA: If you think that the FAA and NTSB does not listen to us, you are kidding yourself. We as ALPA are invited to be a party to almost every accident that occurs. Heck most of our committee members are invited to accidents that do not involve ALPA pilots by other independent associations because frankly they are the best. In reality I could go on and on about the total structure of ALPA. What you and most have an issue with is the bureaucratic bs that seems to be clogging the wheels. That is fixable with a effort of the masses for massive by-law and policy manual rewrite. Heck get a leader that wants what you want, you he can do your heavy lifting. That take one BOD meeting to fix. A few major changes like the rank and file voting for the ALPA president will change the dynamic completely. We are a representation parliament now, go to a federalist sort of organization and the dynamic changes very quickly. The issues that may pose is that we are truly bottom up and a President may be too worries about keeping his job that he does not do his. Maybe things like a two term limit may be the better option. I prefer to have a dialogue on how to fix alpa not how to implode ALPA. There may come a time when the DPA is the correct answer, but in my opinion there are way too many things on the horizon for the delta pilots to take a isolationist sort of view. |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 873406)
Look at Babbitt and Woerth. Hardly the model of the volunteer line pilot.
They've become very wealthy men off their ALPA National "careers". |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 873404)
I wish that were true. But ALPA national controls the money, controls the debate, controls what gets "tabled" and what doesn't. We have some great local reps who are hamstrung by ALPA national desires and direction.
Carl ACL, you talk about making changings to the existing structure of DALPA. How well has that worked so far? How well have our concerns been received in Herndon? Have they even been heard. Quite frankly, the arrogance oozing out of National is eye watering. Ask yourself, can you afford NOT to explore an other option? Do you feel comfortable putting your future in Prater's, Moaks, or whom ever else is in charge at ALPA N or DALPA hands. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA
Carl |
Carl;
When ppl as so many questions I respond. Sorry you see it as a manifesto, but that is how I see it. I would love to have my fears proved wrong. If you do not like Partter, and I am not saying I do, then demand your reps get rid of him and anyone else up there. Tell them who to vote for. I much prefer the campaign be public for all of the pilots to see and weigh in on. I wish all of the other candidates would court the rank and file. I do not disagree that National is bloated. Actually, they just have not seen the same cut backs we have, and any politician should know that this never sits will with the joe citizens. Like I have said before do not throw the baby out with the bath water. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 873392)
Regionals within ALPA have been going after and taking flying for over a decade now. Don't know how you could have missed that. Carl No regional has come in and taken any flying that you at the majors haven't given up. |
Carl; those jobs would not have been there if we would not have sold them. Plain and simple. That is the inconvenient truth.
The Manager: Why? Because it is my honest belief that Pratter will not win. If he does, I may have issues with the process and direction. I am not hanging my star of that man, Last I checked there are three more ppl running and they are all viable candidates. I cannot predict the outcome of this election cycle, but I am willing to bet that after Pratter's performance, that he is not even in the running. I get the impression from talking to our fellow pilots around the country that they see what many here see, and the current direction will not continue. Rhetoric is great but it normally has no traction, and traction is what pilots want. I beleive that many of the other candidates get that. Carl; On your last post, if it survives it is because it knows how to read the prevailing winds and will adjust accordingly. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer.
Carl |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 873331)
It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.
Serious money. Southwest and American pilots pay half what we pay. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 873429)
Pure speculation on your part, but I know you know that. I speculate that DAL pilots will do a great job of representation once freed from national by-laws that do nothing but keep good reps hamstrung.
Carl Carl; Will guys like you step up and make sure that the same positions and ideals do not get forwarded to the new association after its founders has lost favor? If not after one or two cycles we will be back and the same place we are at. This is of course if we are not O.B.E before then. |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 873435)
Except the dues will be half what they are now. That's the reward.
Serious money. Southwest and American pilots pay half what we pay. |
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