Delta Pilots Association
 

Delta Pilots Association - Home

On your mark. Get ready. Discuss!

Thanks for posting. I had no idea a movement had already started.

Dawgs

The same talk has been going on at United. You can't have the same union representing the pilots of the mainline and regionals, there interest are diometrically opposed. I think this will eventually be the demise of ALPA.

Or it will just morph into an even looser federation type of superstructure. While that may technically solve some of the catch 22 issues, it will create more problems and likely amplify an era of predatory pattern bargaining. Yet if ALPA is strengthened, the inherent catch 22 is unavoidable (i.e. it's MY right to fly YOUR 777 and OUR union and YOUR scope clause shouldn't be allowed to stop me insanity, etc).

ALPA is on their way to becoming an RJ only union. They really let the members down over the last three years. IMHO their only chance of survival as a mainline union is by proper handling of the newly proposed rest rules. So far they are off to a bad start.

This ^^^^^^^^

Exactly, Lee Moak wants to be national president-let him-as the only Delta pilot. Whoever started this, thank you. My card is on the way!!!

The New Delta Pilots Association
 

I see that there is a ongoing effort to form a New Pilot Union at DELTA..

I can't say I'm surprised, alot of Members have not been happy with ALPA the last few years....:eek:


Delta Pilots Association
www.delta-pilots.org

Bad idea IMO. Keep your friends close and enemies closer. Despite some tangled representational interests were we to toss the feeders to their devices to get representation I think you would end up with a whole lot more pilots a lot more vocal about flying bigger aircraft with no Scope conflict of interests in doing so with their former ALPA brothers. Worse yet you might end up with ALPA as the final arbiter for a lot of RJ carriers going against your one off in-house. While perhaps pie in the sky I think the solution lies in working within ALPA at raising the wage and cost gap (in the RJ favor) to make eventual integration with their mainline partners feasible. While perhaps well meaning splitting ALPA plays directly into managements hands.

Yup. Mine's already there.

Carl

Question:

Do you think the best way to solve the unity, and scope issues are to be 1) More divisive and 2) to either throw the regionals out of ALPA or create our own union which will not keep the regional airlines in line?
The regionals within ALPA KNOW they cannot go after our flying or they will lose and lose big time. They will lose our financial support and furthermore know that no attack on one of the mainline carriers PWA's/ CBA's within ALPA would be allowed.

Do you see a RJ pilot running for the top spot within ALPA? Wonder why?

Sure send the regionals packing thinking that they would not get their money from somewhere else. (ATA) Lets look at some unintended consequences first. Doing this would allow regional airlines to go after a mainline's flying or try to circumnavigate their flying and Section Ones all together, by signing deals with the alliances. Do not think it could happen, press to test.

Those arguments have been made for years now and ALPA has only gotten more deaf. It's all about counting the cards now. Arguments are over.

Carl

I Ran... Not Walked My Card to The Mail Box............

Let Them Table This Membership Resolution.....

Delta Pilots Association
www.delta-pilots.org

This should at least be a wake up call to the palace guard in Herndon....When you have secretaries making more money than a 737 FO the priorities of the organization need to change. It seems to me that placing maximum emphasis on returning mainline wages and work rules to traditional levels is needed and I don't see it happening. And I agree with the post that ALPA is rapidly turning into an RJ union and one look at who produces the dues money should serve as a reminder to ALPA needs to "dance with the one that brought you".

Maybe we could get another thread going that would get comments from pilots that are part of a one-pilot group union? How well they like it, advantages vs. disadvantages, etc...? Who all are on their own: AA, SWA, UPS, __?

http://www.delta-pilots.org/

If they want credibility, they need to tell us who they are.

It looks like a perfectly honorable, above-board, by the book attempt at presenting the Delta pilots with a viable alternative to our current representation. The founders have no reason to hide. They are doing us all a badly needed service.

Remaining anonymous only creates suspicion and hesitation.
For this effort to succeed, a trusted leader is going to be required.
The Delta pilots aren't going to change unions based on a website.

I think we should support this organization. Choice is a good thing. Even if they fall short, it will serve notice to ALPA National that they need to address the serious conflict of interest in their structure and the bloated cost of running the operation in Herndon.

As it stands, the Delta pilots are not getting our money's worth out of our dues.

Excellent post, ACL. Spot on!

All very good points made by many ppl. I would should suggest watching what the candidates running for National say as well. Maybe the course will be changed, maybe it will not.

I just state, be careful about unintended consequences about actions that are not well thought out. Emotion can be a very dangerous thing.

Read my first post.

What interests are diometrically opposed?

Better Pay?
Better Work Rules?
Safety?

Scope

You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop.

To all delta pilots: You have my fullest support to vote alpa off property. They have become a self-serving, ineffective organization interested only in thier own earnings. I do not believe, as a mainline pilot, ALPA is keeping my interests first--and I pay them for that. Our #1 issue at mainline is scope protection and I see that as a HUGE conflict of interest. Let apla go away or at least learn that mainline pilots are serious about their careers. I hope we follow suit at the new United.

Scope. But you already knew that.

Just show me where to press.

The regionals don't need to start packing. They can keep ALPA. After 20+ years of paying dues - I am beyond ready for a change.

I agree that whip saw must stop.

The problem is that it isn't ALPA's job to get larger aircraft whether it be at the regionals or mainline. If mainline wants to loosen or tighten scope that is their choice. If the regionals what larger equipment very little will stop them from getting it if they really want it. It just doesn't have to come from the majors. Think Independent airlines. If they want larger equipment they can go it alone.

If there is an issue it's that the majors have benefited by the whipsawing. They may have lost airframes but they got larger contracts or took smaller paycuts by outsourcing.

Not ALPA's job to ask for airplanes. An outside union would not have prevented the outsourcing. It's your pilots that gave those airplanes away not ALPA.

The RJDC came after our flying. They might have won if they weren't so clumsy and greedy. They bit off more than they could chew and they had a bad lawyer.

They didn't lose any ALPA financial support. We ended up paying them off plus their lawyers and we agreed to consult with them on future scope negotiations.

The next attack on mainline scope might not be so inept as the RJDC.
ALPA not only has ethical conflicts but they are still legally vulnerable.

Hasn't Lee Moak said that the outsourcing has helped delta mainline? I was told that he said American wasn't growing because they didn't allow more 76 seat outsourcing.

Apprehensive about a group that does not say who they are. Worked for a carrier without a union, one with an in-house and ALPA...for all its imagined problems ALPA still provides a better option than the other two. We have to work together as a collective group to solve problems...going to another group will not make those problems go away...its all about getting the right reps voted in.

ACL65,
I have agreed with practically every post I've ever read that had your name on it...however...this is the one notable exception. I don't presume to know what the answer is, but anybody who has been in this business more than a few years KNOWS that mainline flying has been continuously eroded, year-over-year, since at least 1990. The very first exception in my memory for ANY regional/commuter airline was with A/A, that allowed for a limited number of 19 seat aircraft to "probe the market" in BNA. Next thing you know, they buy up the carrier Simmons Airlines in ORD, where they operate 36 seat Shorts, and 46 seat ATR-42s. Then it was an exception to operate the ATR-72, then along comes the jungle jet, and Canidaire regional, and now we have the 90 seaters. I reiterate, I do not know what the answer is, but it really torques me when I see significant city pairs completely, (yes, completely) handed over to ASA, Comair, etc, etc, etc. If they wanna' fly MEM-TUP, or MSP-LSE, or DFW-GSP, that's one thing. To fly DTW to Monterrey, Mexico (yes, that's our "code-share regional partner" that does/used to fly that route) that is not "regional airline flying". Our two airlines used to have a combined list of somewhere around 13,000-14,000 pilots. I know factually that the north side at one time had 5,600, you south guys can fill in the rest. I'm not advocating "try something, even if it's right" approach. But we're all aware that ALPA's approach has been an unmitigated catastrophe. Ideas? Anyone?

Chuck

Spot on. ^ Serious conflict of interest.

Chuck you are wrong on that one. My new hire number was 6450 ish in 2000. My OE first leg was a DC-9-10 with 76(?) seats in it. I watched the commuters expand as we at mainline sat on furlough. Some for 5+ years. All along we were told that the RJs were good for us, feeding mainline and all.

I am with Chuck on this one ACL. Usually you have some good posts, this one not so much.

In my opinion ALPA is broken. The question is can they be fixed or is it time to start over. I am not ready to send in the card yet, but I am ready to listen.

Chuck;
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA.

The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.

The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue.

The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it.

All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change)

As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.

A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time:

1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them.
(The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.)

2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys?
Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth.

3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation)


I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences."

In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle.

These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat.

In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer.

It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service.

We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it.


We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means.

Caddis, I do not think I am saying that ALPA does not have issues and needs to be fixed. What I am saying is that the issues are fixable and the unintended consequences are to great to take them lightly. There is a huge difference.

BTW;
If you want to take back flying, 1) Vote someone in that will do make it part of the proposal, 2) Vote them out if they do not 3) vote them out if they approve it and send it to memrat, and 4) Do not look at the pretty dollar signs when you see the package that has a scope sale timed to it and vote yes.

Each and every time there has been a further relaxation of scope it has been done with a MEMRAT vote.

Thats the key phrase. "They buy up the carrier simmons airline" but the pilot list where never mergered. Same with Comair, ASA, and any other regional that at one time was bought out by a major. Why the list were never integrated is what has gotten us to this point. It was very short sighted not to see two pilots doing the same jobs but kept on separet list would not be wipsawed against each other by management.:(

One of the main purposes of ALPA is pattern bargaining, yet they almost never engage in this practice. The recent Spirit Airlines contract is a perfect example of this. Sure the Spirit pilots wanted to keep their work rules and take lower pay. The result is some decent work rules and crappy payrates. How does that help pilots at other carriers, who fly similar aircraft on similar routes, bring their rates up?

My point is that ALPA will sign whatever $hitty contract your pilots agree to regardless of the effect on other properties. That is not pattern bargaining. Taking it one step further, ALPA will attempt to strong arm your negotiators and MEC in to a bad TA, and then try to get you to sell it to your pilots! I have seen it first hand as a negotiator and MEC rep.

What ALPA should be doing is setting standards for contracts and not signing those TA's unless they meet the standards. That is pattern bargaining! Instead, they simply want to get a deal, get their dues money, and move on to the next property.

I think the time has come to show them the door.

OK--I concede that point. Mark it up to dyslexia. Instead of 5600, maybe it was 6500. But that only exacerbates the issue. Not trying to start a firefight here. But it seems to me that the fight's already been on now for waay too much of everyone's careers. Steady erosion since Iraq War I, or there abouts. Except for bankruptcy, where it was wholesale slaughter.
Chuck

And that was mutually exclusive to ALPA pilots?

ALPA or any airline union for that matter has become a lame duck mostly because it only represents the interests of its highest paid pilots. No thought or care is given to future pilots that want to embark on this profession. This is a PILOT problem, not a union problem.

Here's a question? For all of you that supported age 65, did you care that ALPA and the other unions that voted for it were giving away their legal fighting power under the precedence that a pilot union has to always align its policies with ICAO standards? Did we fight for age 64 or age 66, no you took the past of least resistance and aligned your views with ICAO. Don't blame ALPA.

They are gonna say whatever crapola they need to say to sway the voters.. which ain't US... We have no say in who gets elected. National is out of touch.. and out of control. It is truly depressing to watch the "leadership" get all the perks and a retirement that makes even some CEOs envious yet here we are with 1990 payrates...

Still waiting for Mr. Prater to get off his butt and show up at an LEC meeting..... ANY LEC meeting at the world's largest airline with his agenda as to how he is going to "take back this profession"