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Originally Posted by JABDIP
(Post 874433)
Sorry for the insult, but if my recollection of thigs is right almost on every issue we have voted on the Union Boys sell it to us and tell us that if we don't pass this then we will end up with alot worse situation. THink back and what were you told by reps when it came time to vote on something. Don't get me wrong, there are some really good guys out there that do work for the pilots but overall most of the reps turn into ALPA national servants after the trip to Herndan.
I remember what the reps told us to do with our votes and I remember I voted no anyway. I remember the few reps who did warn of how bad the contracts were, were eventually voted out or left because they were considered to be too radical. I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how a DPA run by the same people "we" seem to like to vote in is any different than ALPA. I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how CAL/UAL are managing to try to eradicate RJ flying is being done under ALPA while we did not, is National ALPA's fault, and not our own. Either way, with DPA or ALPA, this should serve as a reminder that we have to have some "fortitude" when we decide who our representatives are. When RM and KW get bashed for being too confrontational, then we turn around and say that ALPA is the problem because they are too weak, to me there is some sort of disconnect. Like I said, I want to win. But, what if CAL/UAL win with ALPA? What does that say about us? Why didn't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? To me it says the problem was us and I have no problem taking the blame as "us." Because, ALPA national can be as rotten as they want to be, a lot of the problems we have were voted on buy "us." I'm listening and open to any answer provided. I'm just not hearing a lot, right now. :) |
Just sent my card in...
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Originally Posted by NuGuy
(Post 874547)
And for God's sake, have someone literate working on your communications. Bad grammar and creative spelling makes any effort look like a carnival of dunces no matter how many people say "speeling duddn't count".
Nu |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874551)
And no one you met has ever voted for LOA 46, 51 LOA 19, the JCBA etc. It is easy to present an angered approach to a guy that shows anger an animosity towards the Association. It saves a confrontation and debate from a guy that is not as engaged as you or I.
Voting for your LEC rep is the only course of action within DALPA. Member submitted resolutions that are unpopular (read: all of them) with the MEC are ignored as 'received'. This severely limits any kind of grassroots effort. I'm not sure where this is permissible...but if it isn't, you'd think someone would have called them on it by now. Even when they are enacted, resolutions have very little teeth. We passed one at NWA that called for the MEC Chairman (NOT his subordinates) to attempt to secure preferential hiring at CAL and FDX. This sat on his desk for over 8 months... You need a 3 year campaign to really reform DALPA...and it's VERY difficult to do, because during those 3 years, your reps that have been elected the first year have been inundated with "we can't be angry...we need to keep our seat at the table until we get more support". Even when you get your "team" together, you have to flush the MEC officers, and then root out the Committee structure, which is where the real stuff goes on. Then don't be surprised when those people find the rules that are in place to be VERY comfortable for them. Good luck. Nu |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874551)
And no one you met has ever voted for LOA 46, 51 LOA 19, the JCBA etc. It is easy to present an angered approach to a guy that shows anger an animosity towards the Association. It saves a confrontation and debate from a guy that is not as engaged as you or I.
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Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 874469)
2) Everyone has a pet issue they're very defensive about, but not everyone is very defensive on every issue. You'll have a conversation with a guy that will slit the throat of anyone that doesn't get him his retirement back, then a conversation with someone that wants to burn an RJ to the ground, then someone that wants a 50% raise, and one last guy that will strike if the words RAW Score are not stricken from the next contract. You might conclude all four pilots will burn the place to the ground over Scope, retirements, payrates, and the Reserve system, but, really, each guy will vote Yes based on the one or two issues, no matter what happens to the other 2 to four issues. The latest, most popular tack is for real senior guys to talk a lot about scope. If you're not capitalizing the letters on the forum, nowadays, you're just not cool. One 7ER candidate for Captain Rep in New York is campaigning on 1.5 pay for all pilots above 80 hours, and... SCOPE. SCOPE? Really? When is the last time you saw a group fail to trade SCOPE for retirements or payrates?
3) What you hear depends on where you sit. As I get more senior, and fly in bigger categories, the speech gets a lot... softer on many issues. As I slide back within my category, however, and people are flying domestic and redeyes, it gets a little more hardcore. For sure, if you're in the left seat, most F/O's are bound to sound more radical. So maybe I need an upgrade to get back closer to the truth. I realize what I'm saying is anathema to what almost everyone that's on a web board wants to believe: that the silent majority is really, really militant, and held back by a compliant and weak MEC. I think the truth is that the majority is relatively compliant and worried about the company. I agree that there is universal annoyance with an MEC that seems to work in mysterious ways, but I wonder how dissapointed we might be if that MEC did what many of us clamor for, and released the results of their polling. 2) This is not what I have been finding. Most of the guys I have flown with have issues with all of the things you mentioned, not just a few "pet" items. 3) Could be some truth to this one. I don't know. I've been on the MD-88 my entire Delta career up until 6 months ago. I have wondered if a lot of the 60%ers are found on the more senior aircraft... cause I sure haven't found many of them on the 88 or the -9. |
I know I keep throwing questions without answers, but what about our next contract? Could we have a new union up and running in time for our next TA? It won't help if we go in divided or still setting up shop.
Again, I'm still going back and forth. I like the idea of our own union, but would we be doing too much too fast? I don't want to waste another opporunity. |
Originally Posted by jiminmem
(Post 874585)
I know I keep throwing questions without answers, but what about our next contract? Could we have a new union up and running in time for our next TA? It won't help if we go in divided or still setting up shop.
Again, I'm still going back and forth. I like the idea of our own union, but would we be doing too much too fast? I don't want to waste another opporunity. Q: Can a grassroots effort to sway at least 50 percent of the Delta pilots away from ALPA be realistically achievable? A: Judging by the response we are receiving and considering the minimalistic campaign we have run thus far, we should have no problem hitting the 51% target of authorization cards. As we build toward that mark, volunteerism will increase and more features and facts will emerge. Upon requesting the election from the NMB, we should have a full constitution published and many point papers with research to support it. By the time the election actually occurs, we will be a fully functional organization, ready to take the reigns of leadership at DAL. Our goal is for this election to occur by May 2011. We have a lot to achieve structurally for that to occur. In terms of campaigning in the meantime, you would be impressed with some of the individual contributions already occurring. Captains and First Officers from both sides are creating their own message and pointing to our web site. We are close to launching the Financial Oversight Committee and we will then begin to accept financial contributions. You should see a steady build up of communication along the way. I just hope you will jump in early and help us create this organization properly. Q: Do you think DPA will have enough of a war chest for 2012? A: DPA should have one year of dues collected as a minimum by that point, but more importantly, at least one year of preparation time for individual pilots to ready themselves financially. There will certainly be a huge “STRIKE PREPARATION” education surge well in advance. Between the two, there should be ample opportunity to ready ourselves for potential action. We will need to be ready to sacrifice at contract time regardless of who represents us. |
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
(Post 874575)
Addressing your points above:
2) This is not what I have been finding. Most of the guys I have flown with have issues with all of the things you mentioned, not just a few "pet" items. 3) Could be some truth to this one. I don't know. I've been on the MD-88 my entire Delta career up until 6 months ago. I have wondered if a lot of the 60%ers are found on the more senior aircraft... cause I sure haven't found many of them on the 88 or the -9. So maybe its' not useful to ask a person if they care about some section or other: most everyone answers "yes" to most everything. If you try to ask good questions about what truly matters to them, you really end up with one, two, or three core areas, and a lot of flexibility on the rest. Ask someone, after you get time to know them, what would actually get them to risk their job, and their family's income, and the answer is often way more narrow than you might expect. The company knows this, and the union knows this. By the way, my apologies if I used the term "pet" issue. I'm not saying they're not important issues. I am saying we all focus on different things, and are quite agreeable to voting for something if the triangulation is right. Enough people seem to be satisfied simply by payrate increases. If there ever was an area where you might find these elusive 60percenters hanging out, this might be it. |
Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 874559)
It's ok. I know how heated these issues can become. :D
I remember what the reps told us to do with our votes and I remember I voted no anyway. I remember the few reps who did warn of how bad the contracts were, were eventually voted out or left because they were considered to be too radical. I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how a DPA run by the same people "we" seem to like to vote in is any different than ALPA. I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how CAL/UAL are managing to try to eradicate RJ flying is being done under ALPA while we did not, is National ALPA's fault, and not our own. Either way, with DPA or ALPA, this should serve as a reminder that we have to have some "fortitude" when we decide who our representatives are. When RM and KW get bashed for being too confrontational, then we turn around and say that ALPA is the problem because they are too weak, to me there is some sort of disconnect. Like I said, I want to win. But, what if CAL/UAL win with ALPA? What does that say about us? Why didn't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? To me it says the problem was us and I have no problem taking the blame as "us." Because, ALPA national can be as rotten as they want to be, a lot of the problems we have were voted on buy "us." I'm listening and open to any answer provided. I'm just not hearing a lot, right now. :) |
Never mind... disgusted.
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 874546)
Don't go here unless you are ready to really be angry. I'll give an extremely short recap below:
General manager......$411,100 Chief Counsel..........$411,100 Contract Admin.......$242,800 Web Architect........$129,800 Chief economist......$314,300 Staff attorney........$244,500 Lobbyist................$177,600 Finance director......$240,500 Real estate mgr.......$137,900 Ops manager...........$204,300 Again, this is an extremely short portion of the list for 2009. Carl You only hit on two of the attorneys. There are several more. Plus, if you go to the detail list of itemized expenditures for ALPA National available on that same gov't. website you will find that our high paid staff attorneys need a lot of help. Several million dollars goes to Cohen, Weiss and Simon every single year. And it gets worse. Do you know about Athena? (ex Cohen attorneys) ALPA National is a lawyer empire. A legal fee juggernaut. Its not going to be easy to dislodge those people. And reform them? Forget it. |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 874608)
The one tidbit I got about the DPA so far is that it's a group of guys living in Florida that were part of the previous administration, including the former Chairman. Said Chairman is said to be backing up candidates, including one CA rep and one F/O rep in New York. Hopefully, they can step up and identify themselves.
If DPA is really just the "usual suspects" fomenting insurrection, that's gonna kill it. |
Originally Posted by NuGuy
(Post 874563)
Heyas ACL,
Voting for your LEC rep is the only course of action within DALPA. Member submitted resolutions that are unpopular (read: all of them) with the MEC are ignored as 'received'. This severely limits any kind of grassroots effort. I'm not sure where this is permissible...but if it isn't, you'd think someone would have called them on it by now. Even when they are enacted, resolutions have very little teeth. We passed one at NWA that called for the MEC Chairman (NOT his subordinates) to attempt to secure preferential hiring at CAL and FDX. This sat on his desk for over 8 months... You need a 3 year campaign to really reform DALPA...and it's VERY difficult to do, because during those 3 years, your reps that have been elected the first year have been inundated with "we can't be angry...we need to keep our seat at the table until we get more support". Even when you get your "team" together, you have to flush the MEC officers, and then root out the Committee structure, which is where the real stuff goes on. Then don't be surprised when those people find the rules that are in place to be VERY comfortable for them. Good luck. Nu I dunno, the reps from 20 seem to be taking the lead for their pilots. The SLC reps seem to be forcing some issues, the ATL reps seem to be sticking with the idea of change and communication. I want to see how these guys perform at the BOD. I want to give the third of our reps that were just voted in on a platform of listening and change a chance to do just that. After all it is these same reps that will vote at the BOD. I know I have a a few reps that listen and take notes when I offer suggestions. Better yet they use them. I see that as significant progress. I want to give them the opportunity to go up to National and see if they can do what they say they want to do. They want accountability and I want to see them make people accountable. Most of us like our LEC and DALPA guys so lets trust them to go knock some heads around. Do I like the ineffectiveness that our current National President has? Nope not on your life. I also do not think he has a snowballs chance in winning. If he does win I will question the process. Like I have said, I do not mind that you guys want to force the issue and make ALPA accountable for their actions or inaction. I am just stating that it is my belief that ALPA can and will react to this. They have no choice. I agree that Unit One and Two's pay has always gone up when ours has not. I want them to realize the environment they are in. I suspect that they will realize that if they push the issue they will realize that UAUA and DAL will break off and ALPA will be in CH 11 or 7. They will be without a lot of their money either way. I suspect that this dialogue has been going on for quite some time before DPA came to these boards or was even a solid idea. It may in fact force many of these and other issues to the front burner, and I have no issue with that. In the end my argument as been that the structure of ALPA offers more benefits than that of a lose federation of independent associations. This is where my "fears" of "unintended consequences" comes from. It is not that I have no issue with the excesses many of you see. Things I want changed: 1) Excess in spending for many of the items you all raise. 2) Better leases of business space we use for our associations business. DALPA has done a good job at this. 3) A more direct process for electing our National Leaders. Some sort of electoral college type set up or direct vote by the rank and file for these people. I also want an accumulator in the system that allows only the reps to recall/impeach and not the rank and file. It is needed for stability 4) I would like to see some to all of the executive managers not the pilots but the employees that last administration to administration to be steam lined. (Cut Fat) 5) I would like to see actual positions taken on many issues. Not rhetoric but defendable positions not political speak. IMO it is ok to lose and be on the wrong side of an issue occasionally. The difference is that I beleive that the pilots that are our and other MEC's reps have it within them to effect these changes. I do hope a few of them can be put on the agenda this time around. I want to allow the process to work because there are so many benefit to ALPA that the average line guy does not see unless they are in some serious trouble. There are also benefits to working in this sort of structure that you cannot assign a value to. Losing these items will result in opportunities for many parties to take advantage of the power vacuum that will result. I have addressed in previous posts some of these items so go look at my 30 or so posts in here. I personally hear everything you are saying and do not disagree that some things need to change, I just think the vehicle for change is already in place. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874623)
Nu;
I dunno, the reps from 20 seem to be taking the lead for their pilots. The SLC reps seem to be forcing some issues, the ATL reps seem to be sticking with the idea of change and communication. I want to see how these guys perform at the BOD. I want to give the third of our reps that were just voted in on a platform of listening and change a chance to do just that. After all it is these same reps that will vote at the BOD. I know I have a a few reps that listen and take notes when I offer suggestions. Better yet they use them. I see that as significant progress. I want to give them the opportunity to go up to National and see if they can do what they say they want to do. They want accountability and I want to see them make people accountable. Most of us like our LEC and DALPA guys so lets trust them to go knock some heads around. Do I like the ineffectiveness that our current National President has? Nope not on your life. I also do not think he has a snowballs chance in winning. If he does win I will question the process. Like I have said, I do not mind that you guys want to force the issue and make ALPA accountable for their actions or inaction. I am just stating that it is my belief that ALPA can and will react to this. They have no choice. I agree that Unit One and Two's pay has always gone up when ours has not. I want them to realize the environment they are in. I suspect that they will realize that if they push the issue they will realize that UAUA and DAL will break off and ALPA will be in CH 11 or 7. They will be without a lot of their money either way. I suspect that this dialogue has been going on for quite some time before DPA came to these boards or was even a solid idea. It may in fact force many of these and other issues to the front burner, and I have no issue with that. In the end my argument as been that the structure of ALPA offers more benefits than that of a lose federation of independent associations. This is where my "fears" of "unintended consequences" comes from. It is not that I have no issue with the excesses many of you see. Things I want changed: 1) Excess in spending for many of the items you all raise. 2) Better leases of business space we use for our associations business. DALPA has done a good job at this. 3) A more direct process for electing our National Leaders. Some sort of electoral college type set up or direct vote by the rank and file for these people. I also want an accumulator in the system that allows only the reps to recall/impeach and not the rank and file. It is needed for stability 4) I would like to see some to all of the executive managers not the pilots but the employees that last administration to administration to be steam lined. (Cut Fat) 5) I would like to see actual positions taken on many issues. Not rhetoric but defendable positions not political speak. IMO it is ok to lose and be on the wrong side of an issue occasionally. The difference is that I beleive that the pilots that are our and other MEC's reps have it within them to effect these changes. I do hope a few of them can be put on the agenda this time around. I want to allow the process to work because there are so many benefit to ALPA that the average line guy does not see unless they are in some serious trouble. There are also benefits to working in this sort of structure that you cannot assign a value to. Losing these items will result in opportunities for many parties to take advantage of the power vacuum that will result. I have addressed in previous posts some of these items so go look at my 30 or so posts in here. I personally hear everything you are saying and do not disagree that some things need to change, I just think the vehicle for change is already in place. That's fine and well. All I can say is that my card is going in. ALPA can fix their crap or we're out. |
Check when your own pilots sue its union it needs a lot of defense. :D Also if one of our guys sued DPA for a DFR how do you think they would fair financially? New association and all.
Not an attack, a serious question. |
There is unity for ya! :D
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Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 874615)
Carl-
You only hit on two of the attorneys. There are several more. Plus, if you go to the detail list of itemized expenditures for ALPA National available on that same gov't. website you will find that our high paid staff attorneys need a lot of help. Several million dollars goes to Cohen, Weiss and Simon every single year. And it gets worse. Do you know about Athena? (ex Cohen attorneys) ALPA National is a lawyer empire. A legal fee juggernaut. Its not going to be easy to dislodge those people. And reform them? Forget it. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874627)
Check when your own pilots sue its union it needs a lot of defense. :D Also if one of our guys sued DPA for a DFR how do you think they would fair financially? New association and all.
Not an attack, a serious question. Those fancy ALPA lawyers sure seem to make a lot of huge mistakes. And the dues paying pilots end up eating those mistakes. Duke, Spellacy, RJDC, TWA, the UAL notes, etc. etc. |
Originally Posted by dalad
(Post 874555)
Were you even on the property for any of that? Go back to sticking your finger in the dyke. ALPA National is rotten to the core. Time for a change.
He's here now - and has a vote - and seems to do a pretty good job of keeping his head out of his butt. Which frankly is more than I can say for many of the more "senior" (yes) voters. |
Originally Posted by NuGuy
(Post 874547)
Heyas Carl,
Don't forget TWA.... ALPA went up against the APA...who came out on top? Nu X |
Any major union should make it a point to explain the bait and switch ticketing going on in the industry today. This should be required communication to passengers by law in my opinion. Not just that you are on DCI for example but what that means (separate maintenance, training, pay scales...an altogether different company. Would ALPA ever lobby for this? No.
When our furloughed guys and gals hit the street after Sept. 11 at the Majors and the regionals hired thousands, did national do anything for these furloughed pilots? I'm not talking about the medical part that our own respective pilots provided, (thank you again, btw). It wasn't right and it was a windfall for the regional guys, which is why ALPA's hands were tied. ACL, were you one of the beneficiaries during this time at the regionals? Watching your job being outsourced directly to cheaper labor while your own union doesn't stand up would have given you a different perspective on ALPA. Dawgs |
Just mailed my card.
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Originally Posted by X Rated
(Post 874639)
Sorry, have to chime in on this one. It's because ALPA didn't go up against APA--and in many ways aided the APA--that the TWA pilots are where they are....including litigation against ALPA.
X Nu |
DAWGS,
Why would ALPA/DPA/APA or any organization expend energy and money to push/lobby for the inevitable side effects of the very same things they willingly voted for, in good times and in bad, including MEMRAT? In other words, if you had the unity, muscle and mindset to do something like that, you (collectively, not you personally) wouldn't have been infected with the mentality that sold the flying to manegement for the express purpose of shopping it around to the lowest outsourced bidder in the first place. IOW, fix the mentality and it won't be an issue, other than the costs involved, and there WILL be costs. In good times you will have to take significantly less of a raise. In bad times you will have to take even deeper cuts. Is there 51% unity to push for it anyway? If there isn't, then don't expect any major effort to address what was agreed upon by majority anyway. It starts and ends with the membership and what is important to them. |
Heyas ACL,
Look through the DALPA MEC Policy Manual, ALPA Bylaws or even Robert's Rules of Order. Show me where it's "legal" to receive resolutions and not act upon them (up or down) at the meeting where they are presented or the next meeting at the latest. Now call and ask your rep why they permit this to happen. NOT the reason they do it, not the reason they SAY they do it, but under what authority that permits them to do it. You might be surprised by the answer. It doesn't matter. This new group will get ROTFLStomped. There is WAY, WAY too much money at stake, and not nearly enough USAir-type unity (hate the reason, not the resolve) to pull it off. In the end, slick words and soon-to-be-broken promises will woo this group back into their somnolence. Nu |
Dawgs;
I will answer a question with a question. Can DPA do better in this situation for furloughed pilots? Will they have the scope of influence to force the issue on other carriers? I was honking mad that scope was relaxed and the regionals were allowed to explode. It stifled everyone's career progression. Each Major MEC's bargaining unit and those that voted for it are to blame for these scope changes. (Hindsight is always 20/20 so lets use it) Ch 11 is further to blame. Looking at FAE figures and trying to save them at all costs is to blame. I blame the national lack of unity and a "me" mentality that a name or organizational change will not fix. It has to come from each pilot. In fact if you look at the domino that started it all, it started with UsAir and now they are not part of ALPA. Quite coincidental. Scope sales were a band aid that did not last. It has in the end lead to where we are today with a great majority of people placing blame every which way. I look at all of it as lessons learned that better never be repeated. Scope sales did not help me one bit. It sure did not help anyone I know. I will also state that the regional guys I know want scope tightened at all costs. They hate that they are faced with the possibility that they are stuck. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 874654)
IOW, fix the mentality and it won't be an issue, other than the costs involved, and there WILL be costs. In good times you will have to take significantly less of a raise. In bad times you will have to take even deeper cuts.
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874657)
Dawgs;
I will answer a question with a question. Can DPA do better in this situation for furloughed pilots? Will they have the scope of influence to force the issue on other carriers? I was honking mad that scope was relaxed and the regionals were allowed to explode. It stifled everyone's career progression. Each Major MEC's bargaining unit and those that voted for it are to blame for these scope changes. (Hindsight is always 20/20 so lets use it) Ch 11 is further to blame. Looking at FAE figures and trying to save them at all costs is to blame. I blame the national lack of unity and a "me" mentality that a name or organizational change will not fix. It has to come from each pilot. In fact if you look at the domino that started it all, it started with UsAir and now they are not part of ALPA. Quite coincidental. Scope sales were a band aid that did not last. It has in the end lead to where we are today with a great majority of people placing blame every which way. I look at all of it as lessons learned that better never be repeated. Scope sales did not help me one bit. It sure did not help anyone I know. I will also state that the regional guys I know want scope tightened at all costs. They hate that they are faced with the possibility that they are stuck. Point of order: The first code-share jets at "other than mainline" were BAE 146s flown by Air Willie. The first 'RJ' RJs had Comair markings and carried a Delta Code. And those RJs were given away WITHOUT the arm twisting of a Bankruptcy Court. Which was worse? Nu |
Originally Posted by X Rated
(Post 874639)
Sorry, have to chime in on this one. It's because ALPA didn't go up against APA--and in many ways aided the APA--that the TWA pilots are where they are....including litigation against ALPA.
X |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 874603)
At the risk of ruining your argument by saying this... it makes perfect sense to me. If we vote for the reps, and we vote for the contracts, and we want more MEMRAT, then how are we going to see a different outcome under the DPA?
Here's how things could be very different: No ALPA bylaws and legal committees that make rules and hamstring our local officials who do try to do good work. Next, no incredibly bloated bureaucracy...see my earlier post of just some of the salaries paid to administrators. Lastly, MEMRAT votes with honest communication rather than, "If you vote this down, we're sunk! You'll lose everything. Your families will starve. Is that what you want?" The company will give nothing more...they'll shut the doors rather than move one inch more...you HAVE to vote yes for this." It's that type of "communication" that has led to so many yes votes based on extreme fear orchestrated by ALPA national lawyers. ACL keeps talking about this vote being based on anger. He couldn't have misread this movement more. ALPA national and its supporters like ACL, slowplay, etal ignore the fear mongering that has been the hallmark of ALPA national, while smearing this movement with the epithet of "anger." Carl |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 874615)
Carl-
You only hit on two of the attorneys. There are several more. Plus, if you go to the detail list of itemized expenditures for ALPA National available on that same gov't. website you will find that our high paid staff attorneys need a lot of help. Several million dollars goes to Cohen, Weiss and Simon every single year. And it gets worse. Do you know about Athena? (ex Cohen attorneys) ALPA National is a lawyer empire. A legal fee juggernaut. Its not going to be easy to dislodge those people. And reform them? Forget it. Carl |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874627)
Check when your own pilots sue its union it needs a lot of defense. :D Also if one of our guys sued DPA for a DFR how do you think they would fair financially? New association and all.
Not an attack, a serious question. Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 874676)
Why don't we wait to see if there's an association before you start the fear mongering.
Carl I agree with most of your points on the DPA, but this is something that we have to think of. A young association will be inherently vulnerable for a time while it is in its infancy. We have to have a solid plan in place... a good offense requires an exceptional defense. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 874623)
Nu;
I dunno, the reps from 20 seem to be taking the lead for their pilots. The SLC reps seem to be forcing some issues, the ATL reps seem to be sticking with the idea of change and communication. I want to see how these guys perform at the BOD. I want to give the third of our reps that were just voted in on a platform of listening and change a chance to do just that. After all it is these same reps that will vote at the BOD. I know I have a a few reps that listen and take notes when I offer suggestions. Better yet they use them. I see that as significant progress. I want to give them the opportunity to go up to National and see if they can do what they say they want to do. They want accountability and I want to see them make people accountable. Most of us like our LEC and DALPA guys so lets trust them to go knock some heads around. Do I like the ineffectiveness that our current National President has? Nope not on your life. I also do not think he has a snowballs chance in winning. If he does win I will question the process. Like I have said, I do not mind that you guys want to force the issue and make ALPA accountable for their actions or inaction. I am just stating that it is my belief that ALPA can and will react to this. They have no choice. I agree that Unit One and Two's pay has always gone up when ours has not. I want them to realize the environment they are in. I suspect that they will realize that if they push the issue they will realize that UAUA and DAL will break off and ALPA will be in CH 11 or 7. They will be without a lot of their money either way. I suspect that this dialogue has been going on for quite some time before DPA came to these boards or was even a solid idea. It may in fact force many of these and other issues to the front burner, and I have no issue with that. In the end my argument as been that the structure of ALPA offers more benefits than that of a lose federation of independent associations. This is where my "fears" of "unintended consequences" comes from. It is not that I have no issue with the excesses many of you see. Things I want changed: 1) Excess in spending for many of the items you all raise. 2) Better leases of business space we use for our associations business. DALPA has done a good job at this. 3) A more direct process for electing our National Leaders. Some sort of electoral college type set up or direct vote by the rank and file for these people. I also want an accumulator in the system that allows only the reps to recall/impeach and not the rank and file. It is needed for stability 4) I would like to see some to all of the executive managers not the pilots but the employees that last administration to administration to be steam lined. (Cut Fat) 5) I would like to see actual positions taken on many issues. Not rhetoric but defendable positions not political speak. IMO it is ok to lose and be on the wrong side of an issue occasionally. The difference is that I beleive that the pilots that are our and other MEC's reps have it within them to effect these changes. I do hope a few of them can be put on the agenda this time around. I want to allow the process to work because there are so many benefit to ALPA that the average line guy does not see unless they are in some serious trouble. There are also benefits to working in this sort of structure that you cannot assign a value to. Losing these items will result in opportunities for many parties to take advantage of the power vacuum that will result. I have addressed in previous posts some of these items so go look at my 30 or so posts in here. I personally hear everything you are saying and do not disagree that some things need to change, I just think the vehicle for change is already in place. One point to consder on the "Coat tails of ALPA": If SWAPA rides the those coat tails how can they keep their dues so low, they must be paying somebody for Aero, etc. Found this on another thread: Originally Posted by JDFlyer http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif Poolie here . . . quick question and a momentary thread hijack. I am over in the Regional threads talking union stuff. The allegation has been made over there that SWAPA dues are much greater than ALPA dues (1.95% I believe). My understanding is that SWAPA dues are 1% and that SWAPA's President, Mr. CK, makes 125% of line captain pay as his salary for his duties. Could you are any SWA pilot who has the time or cares to comment just briefly summarize the SWAPA dues. (I have searched APC for the answer to this question that I know has been asked before, but I am not getting any good search results.) SWAPA dues are 1% of your earnings. .25% while you're on probation. We (Delta) are paying double what SWA is paying - that makes our pay gap even larger. Just something more to think about. |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 874678)
I agree with most of your points on the DPA, but this is something that we have to think of. A young association will be inherently vulnerable for a time while it is in its infancy. We have to have a solid plan in place... a good offense requires an exceptional defense.
The fact that it is not making puffed up promises that it doesn't even know how to keep (sound familiar) is good news. It bodes well for the future. Carl |
Professional Negotiators of the Day: Top rated Labor/employer law firm.
Great experience sitting on managements side of the table and well accquainted with the process. Experienced personnel in the RLA as well. Or, we could train a few pilots to go up against a bunch of lawyers like these, of course backed up by ALPA lawyers that dream they could be working at a firm like that. Which do you prefer? Paul Hastings: Practice Areas: Labor/Management Relations |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 874615)
Carl-
You only hit on two of the attorneys. There are several more. Plus, if you go to the detail list of itemized expenditures for ALPA National available on that same gov't. website you will find that our high paid staff attorneys need a lot of help. Several million dollars goes to Cohen, Weiss and Simon every single year. And it gets worse. Do you know about Athena? (ex Cohen attorneys) ALPA National is a lawyer empire. A legal fee juggernaut. Its not going to be easy to dislodge those people. And reform them? Forget it. So what you are looking for are professional negotiators that will work for free. Good luck with that. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 874670)
This has been asked an answered a number of times already on this very thread...but I'll repeat for ???th time:
Here's how things could be very different: No ALPA bylaws and legal committees that make rules and hamstring our local officials who do try to do good work. Next, no incredibly bloated bureaucracy...see my earlier post of just some of the salaries paid to administrators. Lastly, MEMRAT votes with honest communication rather than, "If you vote this down, we're sunk! You'll lose everything. Your families will starve. Is that what you want?" The company will give nothing more...they'll shut the doors rather than move one inch more...you HAVE to vote yes for this." It's that type of "communication" that has led to so many yes votes based on extreme fear orchestrated by ALPA national lawyers. ACL keeps talking about this vote being based on anger. He couldn't have misread this movement more. ALPA national and its supporters like ACL, slowplay, etal ignore the fear mongering that has been the hallmark of ALPA national, while smearing this movement with the epithet of "anger." Carl As far as this movement being based on anger, I have to completely agree with ACL. The poor communication at DALPA, combined with an almost universal dislike for Prater and anything that looks remotely like an administration of any kind rigth now, have left the field ripe for anyone old snake-oil salesman to get in. Enter DPA. |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 874689)
Okay, this is hilarious. You tout the "professional negotiators" that DPA is pushing. So we hire professional lawyers who are considered the best labor attorneys in the country and a professional investment banker to help us negotiate and then you whine about their fees.
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 874546)
Don't go here unless you are ready to really be angry. I'll give an extremely short recap below:
General manager......$411,100 Chief Counsel..........$411,100 Contract Admin.......$242,800 Web Architect........$129,800 Chief economist......$314,300 Staff attorney........$244,500 Lobbyist................$177,600 Finance director......$240,500 Real estate mgr.......$137,900 Ops manager...........$204,300 Again, this is an extremely short portion of the list for 2009. Tsquare, does this partially answer your question? Carl Carl |
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