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-   -   Delta Pilots Association (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/53577-delta-pilots-association.html)

NWA320pilot 09-24-2010 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875481)
Alfa lets not forget what the cost of this team is as well. It is not cheap but with the multiple airlines paying for their full time services we can split the costs.
With 12000+ pilots I am quite certain we can afford these costs.

DAL 88 Driver 09-24-2010 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875481)
Alfa lets not forget what the cost of this team is as well. It is not cheap but with the multiple airlines paying for their full time services we can split the costs.
So, when you look at the amount of dues money collected from our 12,000+ pilots, how much of that money is being sucked away by other costs at ALPA National? How much of it is actually benefiting (directly or indirectly) our pilot group? I'm sure that the cost of these particular services would be higher individually with DPA, but without a whole bunch of our money going towards things that do not benefit us, I suspect we can afford those increased costs and our overall costs might even be considerably lower. As I understand it, one of the big objectives with DPA is to get better services than what we are getting now. That, of course, is debatable and should be part of the debate...

acl65pilot 09-24-2010 08:03 AM
Maybe maybe not. As we have stated DAL or UAUA pilots opting out of ALPA would more than likely cause the implosion of the organization. They may be able to spin off the services potion of National but you cannot even use the fees that other airlines pay for these services as a litmus to what our fees would be. (They pay a lot)

If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.

Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?

2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)

Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)

To compare apples to apples:

1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?

2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?

3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?

Other General:

1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?

2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)

3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)

4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?

5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.

6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?

No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.

A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?

Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.

TheManager 09-24-2010 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
Maybe maybe not. As we have stated DAL or UAUA pilots opting out of ALPA would more than likely cause the implosion of the organization. They may be able to spin off the services potion of National but you cannot even use the fees that other airlines pay for these services as a litmus to what our fees would be. (They pay a lot)

If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.

Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?

2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)

Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)

To compare apples to apples:

1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?

2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?

3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?

Other General:

1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?

2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)

3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)

4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?

5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.

6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?

No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.

A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?

Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
These are all good questions. First. DPA appears no where near to taking over ALPA. As I understand, first they need card (50% + 1 ??) to force a vote.

If they were smart.....they would address many of these concerns prior to that. They definitely would have to after they have forced a vote, assuming they get that far.

People are rightfully disappointed with ALPA and DALPA. One of the main reasons lies with communications. If DPA were shrewd, they would come forward and capitalize on ALPA's weakness with stellar communication. Hopefully they will and we will be able to make a measured analysis.

Possibly a DPA affiliation with his group would solve a lot of those ?'s

Home | Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations

DAL 88 Driver 09-24-2010 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
Maybe maybe not. As we have stated DAL or UAUA pilots opting out of ALPA would more than likely cause the implosion of the organization. They may be able to spin off the services potion of National but you cannot even use the fees that other airlines pay for these services as a litmus to what our fees would be. (They pay a lot)

If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.

Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?

2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)

Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)

To compare apples to apples:

1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?

2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?

3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?

Other General:

1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?

2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)

3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)

4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?

5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.

6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?

No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.

A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?

Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
All excellent questions, ACL. I too agree they need to be answered before any decisions are made.

tsquare 09-24-2010 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875481)
Alfa lets not forget what the cost of this team is as well. It is not cheap but with the multiple airlines paying for their full time services we can split the costs.

So tell me this then, is the cost of these teams proportional with the dues that each airline pays? IOW, when (for example) ASA negotiates their contract, are they paying these teams a fee commensurate with their dues? Or once again, are the legacy airlines footing the bill for that? Sounds like going out with a FA crew in Rome to me. I had a slice of pizza and a beer, they had lobster and Chardonnay, yet we pay an equal anmount... funy how that always works out...

Bucking Bar 09-24-2010 12:36 PM
RA RA RA yep those pesky regionals are draining all the money out of ALPA, RA RA RA

Sorry to interrupt with a dose of reality, but ALPA's biggest expense has been legal judgments and settlements. For the most part, all of these expenses have either been brought by, or against, mainline bargaining groups (including our own, reference Miller v. ALPA). UAL just got us hit for $44,000,0000.00. While it has been a while, the original nuclear strike on our major contingency fund arose out of the Delta / Pan Am merger. ALPA has defended stuff as stupid as MEC members awarding themselves bonus money on United's ESOP and we probably don't really want to talk publicly on liabilities which started in ALPA owned condominiums (regional guys barely know those exist).

Of course a lot of those defense costs are part of ALPA's duty to represent pilots. The only reason I mention the egregious stuff is because those are costs the mainline pilots have generated.

What's amusing is to read the Skywest thread and read the reason they do not want to join ALPA is to have their dues money squandered on mainline pilots.

... ok, back to blaming everyone else for our problems ... sorry for the "noise."

Kind of reminds me of this clip (pardon the language) when Larry Flynt tells his lawyer "Don't be so melodramatic. You'll never quit. I'm your dream client, I'm more fun, I'm rich and I'm always in trouble." They guy had a point.

Larry's attorney quits

Karnak 09-24-2010 03:02 PM
ALPA has flaws. DPA will not have any flaws. I read it on their web site.

I know all 3 of the officers at the DPA. "Flawed" is the kindest word I could use to describe them.

Pineapple Guy 09-24-2010 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karnak (Post 875728)
ALPA has flaws. DPA will not have any flaws. I read it on their web site.

I know all 3 of the officers at the DPA. "Flawed" is the kindest word I could use to describe them.
I respect these three guys for at least having the courage to sign their names to this.

What we all SHOULD be asking is who is really pulling the strings but too gutless to come out in the open? Hint: it's not any of these three. If I were to guess, it's someone who craves power but doesn't think he can acquire it through ALPA for whatever reason.

Perhaps he'll come out from behind the curtain. Perhaps he won't. My guess is he won't until he sees whether this will achieve success. Meanwhile he has no hesitation subjecting his three loyal followers to the negative publicity.

Nice leadership.

Karnak 09-24-2010 03:46 PM
Makes you wonder what they mean by "transparency" on their web site.

Rogue24 09-24-2010 03:46 PM
I swear somewhere in history somewhere there was someone that used the recent repression of a population to profit and exploit these people without any real clear goals, just a flush of frustration. I also recall this same thing resulting in the people realizing what was up far too late. :rolleyes:

Carl Spackler 09-24-2010 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 875469)
Carl, once again you are just wrong on the facts. A small negotiating session will have at least one professional negotiator along with the committee. The team rapidly expands as the issues get more complicated. When we get into large negotiations you will have:

A professional ALPA lawyer negotiator
One or two professional outside lawyer negotiator(s)
An investment banker
1-3 professional actuaries who are experts on R+I
1-3 professional economists who do contract costing and analysis of the company's financial condition

I am sure I left something out. But your contention that negotiations are attended only by pilots who went to a seminar is grossly inaccurate. There is a large team of professionals that have years of experience. The pilot negotiators help manage the team and always make sure that the focus doesn't leave pilot issues.

By the way, face to face negotiations mean almost nothing. 99% of the work is put in developing the term sheet which is passed across the table. The image of 10 guys sitting in a room yelling at each other and the guy who yells the loudest wins is an image for the movies only.
Nothing quite as funny as being to by YOU that I don't know what I'm talking about.

The negotiating committee chairman is a line pilot who has attended seminars on negotiations. Same for the vice chairman. When things get really bad right at the end, the only people in the room are the ones that can make the decisions - both sides want the other staff types out.

For you to infer that we already have professional negotiators and our line pilot negotiators are somehow barely part of the process, is just silly. And to say that face to face negotiations are not important only proves you've never had anything to do with them.

Carl

Carl Spackler 09-24-2010 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.

Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
What has that access gotten us? Are you happy with the level of governmental damage done to our airlines? Taxes, fees, taking years to declare an impasse, FTDT regs that have us flying more so that we're fatigued less?...should I go on? You call this access?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain.
I hope they don't have an office in DC. Daily face to face meetings isn't access and/or influence...it's pure junketing on both sides. Worthless, and the results speak for themselves regardless of what Prater touts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
Anyone can use our aeromed guys for a fee. Somehow I think they'll also work with DPA for the same fee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
This is a HUGE part of ALPA's problem. Full time lawyers who are nothing more than french poodles who are scared to death of litigation. We should retain a small firm with proven litigations skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
Same as now...possibly less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Same as now...possibly less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
Less because we would only need the contingency fund to handle strikes by Delta Air Lines pilots...not the whole industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
I believe the same thing would happen with any pilot who would contemplate flying struck work for APA, SWAPA, etc. The age of the internet makes being a scab untenable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
The structure will be whatever Delta Air Lines' pilots decide it will be by majority vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues.
How do they do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
Will a meteor hit the nation too? A plague maybe? An assessment to insure against bed bug infestation? Come on man!

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that.
State your facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect.
I don't believe your mind is open on this despite what you say here. You are an ALPA guy no matter what. Why you are...is my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875514)
I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Then DPA won't happen.

Carl

Carl Spackler 09-24-2010 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karnak (Post 875728)
ALPA has flaws. DPA will not have any flaws. I read it on their web site.

I know all 3 of the officers at the DPA. "Flawed" is the kindest word I could use to describe them.
Ah yes...the smearing continues.

Carl

Carl Spackler 09-24-2010 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy (Post 875741)
I respect these three guys for at least having the courage to sign their names to this. What we all SHOULD be asking is who is really pulling the strings but too gutless to come out in the open? Hint: it's not any of these three. If I were to guess, it's someone who craves power but doesn't think he can acquire it through ALPA for whatever reason.
In one of my first posts, I said the entrenched ALPA apologists would fight this through smearing and personal attack. This is an example for everyone to view. This will only continue. Here's a guy who says "if I were to guess" on the one hand, and then smears on the other. Disgusting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy (Post 875741)
Perhaps he'll come out from behind the curtain. Perhaps he won't. My guess is he won't until he sees whether this will achieve success. Meanwhile he has no hesitation subjecting his three loyal followers to the negative publicity.

Nice leadership.
Another perfect example. This guy knows absolutely nothing of the people involved who are not listed on the corporate documents, but he's perfectly willing to infer the worst to them - even though they may not even exist.

Carl

alfaromeo 09-24-2010 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 875823)
Nothing quite as funny as being to by YOU that I don't know what I'm talking about.

The negotiating committee chairman is a line pilot who has attended seminars on negotiations. Same for the vice chairman. When things get really bad right at the end, the only people in the room are the ones that can make the decisions - both sides want the other staff types out.

For you to infer that we already have professional negotiators and our line pilot negotiators are somehow barely part of the process, is just silly. And to say that face to face negotiations are not important only proves you've never had anything to do with them.

Carl
At the end game, everyone knows where the deal is, the last few hours are spent working on one or two last issues. In general, the end game will have very few people involved but one of them will be a professional negotiator, I could name him but it is unimportant.

I did not infer that our line pilot negotiators are barely part of the process. I did say that there is an entire team of professionals that work with the negotiating committee throughout the process. When people call for "professional negotiators" I assume that they want pilots involved somehow. When they describe the process of using professional negotiators, they always describe the situation we have now. We have professional negotiators, we have pilots, they are a team. The team is expanded with subject matter experts, analysts, actuaries, it can be a large group.

Lastly, Carl, I have been in the room many times, so yes I do know what it's like.

cactusmike 09-24-2010 08:52 PM
Sorry for jumping in at the tail end of the thread but...

Look At USAPA for a prime example of how not to set up a union. They are looking to the Teamsters now as a "strategic alliance" because USAPA itself is pretty innefectual. 400 plus grievances outstanding, the same shills that sucked at the FPL teat under the old US Airways have reinvented themselves at USAPA.

Dues at USAPA are higher than in ALPA if you count all the assesments for all the lawsuits and investigations going around. Legal fees for USAPA are most of the budget, legal fees run up suing fellow pilots. There is no adult supervision, you cannot recall the president or other executive members without going through a very convoluted process. Thousands of dollars are spent on frivolous things without anyone being held accountable.

You want problems? Just let the hardliners seize control of your union and see how effective your negotiations become. ALPA isn't pretty but going it alone is not the answer.

The real solution for ALPA is to go back to being an association for the big guys and split the regionals off to a RALPA. You can share the backoffice functions but the organizational chart would be separate.

forgot to bid 09-24-2010 09:16 PM
Carl, you need to hold a class... on how to multi quote.

Holy cow. That takes me a long time to pull that off.

Parting quote of the night:

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Regan

80ktsClamp 09-24-2010 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 875874)
Carl, you need to hold a class...
I just can't take you serious when you type broken sentences like this.


Quote:
on how to multi quote.
Now you're making up terms? Typical.

Quote:
Holy cow. That takes me a long time to pull that off.
Yes it would. If you would take a moment and stop blindly supporting alpa at every turn, you would find time to learn how to do multiple quotes.

Quote:
Parting quote of the night:

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Regan

Typical cliche.



(sorry, Carl! Too easy! :D )

forgot to bid 09-24-2010 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 875875)
I just can't take you serious when you type broken sentences like this.




Now you're making up terms? Typical.



Yes it would. If you would take a moment and stop blindly supporting alpa at every turn, you would find time to learn how to do multiple quotes.




Typical cliche.


All I am saying is I want less corruption, or more opportunity to participate in it.

tsquare 09-24-2010 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 875862)
Sorry for jumping in at the tail end of the thread but...
.
You are nowhere near the end of this thread....

tsquare 09-24-2010 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 875880)
All I am saying is I want less corruption, or more opportunity to participate in it.
"You'll get nothing, and like it" - Judge Smails

acl65pilot 09-25-2010 04:22 AM
Carl;
I will try to respond to the rest of your "retorts" later, but I am out the door right now.


On the lawyers. Lawyers do what their clients tell them, even in house attorneys. It is very easy to say, Have a small firm known for .....," there is a problem with that logic. First, there are no small firms that are good enough, and two it will not be cheaper, by a long shot.
ALPA has an outside law firm on top of the in house counsel as well. You just do not like who they use.

FtB;
I wanted to have more of a say, and I made it my point to get my reps to listen to me, and thus far I am happy with the level of engagement. Actually very happy.

Carl Spackler 09-25-2010 04:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 875874)
Carl, you need to hold a class... on how to multi quote.

Holy cow. That takes me a long time to pull that off.

Parting quote of the night:

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -Ronald Regan
Sorry man. I've begged ACL to keep his manifestos under 50,000 words, but he just won't do it.

Here's my quote of the day:

"Brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakespeare

Carl

Carl Spackler 09-25-2010 04:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 875880)
All I am saying is I want less corruption, or more opportunity to participate in it.
Now that right there is some funny stuff right there...I don't care who ya are.

Carl

Carl Spackler 09-25-2010 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 875898)
"You'll get nothing, and like it" - Judge Smails
"Well you know Danny...the world needs ditch diggers too." - Judge Smails

Carl

forgot to bid 09-25-2010 04:39 AM
ACL, when 80 went all multi quote on me I had to respond and fast so I used a demotivational poster quote, it wasn't directed at anyone. I needed something and it was the only one that'd fit with max absurdity without a picture and I hate posting pictures. :D

forgot to bid 09-25-2010 05:12 AM
Sometimes late at night a roving band of marauders goes from thread to thread tipping over trash cans. Problem is, if they continue unchecked it'll only get worse and they might bring their act to daylight.

Damn 2007-2008 new hire(s).

Superdad 09-25-2010 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 875919)
Carl;

ALPA has an outside law firm on top of the in house counsel as well. You just do not like who they use.

Ahh yes, Cohen, Weiss and Surrender!

FlyingSig 09-25-2010 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 875862)
Sorry for jumping in at the tail end of the thread but...

Look At USAPA for a prime example of how not to set up a union. They are looking to the Teamsters now as a "strategic alliance" because USAPA itself is pretty ineffectual. 400 plus grievances outstanding, the same shills that sucked at the FPL teat under the old US Airways have reinvented themselves at USAPA.

Dues at USAPA are higher than in ALPA if you count all the assessments for all the lawsuits and investigations going around. Legal fees for USAPA are most of the budget, legal fees run up suing fellow pilots. There is no adult supervision, you cannot recall the president or other executive members without going through a very convoluted process. Thousands of dollars are spent on frivolous things without anyone being held accountable.

You want problems? Just let the hardliners seize control of your union and see how effective your negotiations become. ALPA isn't pretty but going it alone is not the answer.

The real solution for ALPA is to go back to being an association for the big guys and split the regionals off to a RALPA. You can share the backoffice functions but the organizational chart would be separate.
People need to read this post a few times. Spot on. The posts I've seen in favor of DPA are not based in fact (show me the costs... the only mention of money they have on their website is they'll have a warchest after one year of dues... really, how much are dues going to be if you also have to run the day to day operations of the union?) but based on some myopic quest of idealism.

Carl, you say things like lawyers and aeromed will be the same or cheaper? Really? How much do we pay now and what's the cost going to be? Answer: You have no clue so how can you say that?

There's a big reason CAL went back to ALPA after IACP (I was an IACP dues payer and volunteer at one point in my life). The politics of how they came back aside, bottom line is they needed ALPA much more than ALPA needed them. It's the same reason FedEx joined ALPA. (Side note, once the IACP came to ALPA, Mainline and Express split off from one group....hmmm precedent? Compass/Delta? See catusmike's post above and see if a lightbulb goes off)

The solution is done through voting, not going it alone.

Of course if our largest pilot base, Council 44 can only muster up 35% of people to vote for their own reps I think DPA's proclamation of being "well on their way" by spring of getting their 6500 cards is a real stretch. I know I won't be sending one in.

shadyops 09-25-2010 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot (Post 873215)
The same talk has been going on at United. You can't have the same union representing the pilots of the mainline and regionals, there interest are diometrically opposed. I think this will eventually be the demise of ALPA.

I don't understand why some folks thing regional pilots and mainline pilots have different goals. It is a myth at best.

Bucking Bar 09-25-2010 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSig (Post 875949)
There's a big reason CAL went back to ALPA after IACP (I was an IACP dues payer and volunteer at one point in my life). The politics of how they came back aside, bottom line is they needed ALPA much more than ALPA needed them. It's the same reason FedEx joined ALPA. (Side note, once the IACP came to ALPA, Mainline and Express split off from one group....hmmm precedent? Compass/Delta? See catusmike's post above and see if a lightbulb goes off)

The solution is done through voting, not going it alone.

... I know I won't be sending (a card) in.
Excellent post

Bucking Bar 09-25-2010 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyops (Post 876008)
I don't understand why some folks thing regional pilots and mainline pilots have different goals. It is a myth at best.
You are correct.

At most, ALPA has a problem in the rare instance that one MEC starts to negotiate something that might harm another MEC. In that case, ALPA National provides a forum and method of resolution. (we know who the most powerful LEC and MEC are in ALPA)

The answer to any conflict of interest is UNITY. One can not fight with itself. Scope can be restored by building bridges and letting ALPA members participate together in the process.

Up to now, scope has not been restored because our local leadership has not reached a consensus to achieve that goal. It is not an ALPA National issue, it is a local issue with a local answer.

I am encouraged by the positions taken by our current Reps and our MEC's action to preserve Compass and Mesaba employment.

NWA320pilot 09-25-2010 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyops (Post 876008)
I don't understand why some folks thing regional pilots and mainline pilots have different goals. It is a myth at best.
You are correct majors/regionals don't have different goals. What we both want is to get the most flying for the most money. The difference is we both want it for our own companies!

Scoop 09-25-2010 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyops (Post 876008)
I don't understand why some folks thing regional pilots and mainline pilots have different goals. It is a myth at best.
The commuters of today are much larger than those of yesterday. Partly as a result of this many will not be able to move on to a major, resulting in many more staying at the commuter for their entire careers.

I think we will continue to see a lot of pressure from the senior pilots at the commuters to capture more flying via larger aircraft.

It is true DAL is parking a lot of 50 seaters, and this is good for mainline pilots but I don't think a lot of regional guys are happy about it. What happens in the 76-124 seat market is all important and remains to be seen.

Scoop

RedeyeAV8r 09-25-2010 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 876050)
The commuters of today are much larger than those of yesterday. Partly as a result of this many will not be able to move on to a major, resulting in many more staying at the commuter for their entire careers.

I think we will continue to see a lot of pressure from the senior pilots at the commuters to capture more flying via larger aircraft.

It is true DAL is parking a lot of 50 seaters, and this is good for mainline pilots but I don't think a lot of regional guys are happy about it. What happens in the 76-124 seat market is all important and remains to be seen.

Scoop
If DAL mainline gets more Aircraft or taks flying from one of their regional carriers, this is a good thing overall as it will create more Main line jobs at higher rates with better benefits. DAL will hire Pilots!.

This is good for DAL and Good for the Industry especially if DALPA improves
their scope clause. Hopefully a new BAR is set and UA/CAL, ALA, AA and USair will meet or exceed this in their coming contracts.

True it is bad (in the short term) for the regionals who lose flying but the vast majority of Regional pilots have their sights set on getting on with a Major. More Major jobs is goos for everybody.

Also realize that much of the Regional flying currently being done was once done by Mainline and this flying was Outsourced to Lower labor costs.

Simply Put. Which is a better scenario......Growing Majors or Growing Regionals?

gloopy 09-25-2010 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot (Post 876043)
You are correct majors/regionals don't have different goals. What we both want is to get the most flying for the most money. The difference is we both want it for our own companies!
Of course, but therin lies the rub. Flying at mainline stays at mainline (until and unless mainline gives it away of course). But any new flying regionals "gain" can't possibly be a lasting gain for anyone's company or seniority list. If DAL/UAL/ETC agree tomorrow to outsource the E190/195 or C series, some regionals will of course get that flying. But it won't last unless they are committed to permantly being the low bidder. To get today's RFP for growth AND to KEEP tomorrow's RFP for existing flying. That will mean competing against other regionals who will always be just as hungry as you for growth, upgrades, seniority list advancement and the like. So the seat count would go up, and maybe even with a temporary raise/upgrades, but in the long run it will be back to today's status quo and likely less. As an added bonus, there will be fewer better jobs to go to, by choice or necessity. And at the end of the day the sector as a whole won't be any more secure.

That is why any additional flying to the regionals on behalf of a mainline partner is bad for the careers of both. The quick high of regional upgrades, which to no small irony and no small part is looked upon as a good thing for the PIC building opportunities to eventually go to a mainline carrier for many (and even helpes drive SJS based low bidding in the first place) becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that drags down the mainline and all regionals anyway.

shadyops 09-25-2010 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot (Post 876043)
You are correct majors/regionals don't have different goals. What we both want is to get the most flying for the most money. The difference is we both want it for our own companies!

That is incorrect. I fly at Compass. Why would I want more flying here? I want Delta to grow and CPZ to shrink down to nothing. All of us do.

Most regional pilots do not want more flying on the regional side. We know it leads to more crappy jobs.

shadyops 09-25-2010 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 876050)
The commuters of today are much larger than those of yesterday. Partly as a result of this many will not be able to move on to a major, resulting in many more staying at the commuter for their entire careers.

I think we will continue to see a lot of pressure from the senior pilots at the commuters to capture more flying via larger aircraft.

It is true DAL is parking a lot of 50 seaters, and this is good for mainline pilots but I don't think a lot of regional guys are happy about it. What happens in the 76-124 seat market is all important and remains to be seen.

Scoop
Speaking for myself I am glad to see the 50 seaters go away. I feel for the people who lost their jobs and I was one of them. But in order for long term gains regional pilots will have to deal with some short losses. The majority of regional pilots want more higher paying jobs at mainline. Plain and simple.

detpilot 09-25-2010 02:10 PM
Quote:
Most regional pilots do not want more flying on the regional side. We know it leads to more crappy jobs.
Except the lifers... and there are more of them than you'd think!


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