I do see value in raising the barriers of entry. And to some extent a portion of that will be arbitrary, and that's OK (to a reasonable extent). Heck the AMA, ABA and just about every type of educational system does that. You can't graduate high school without jumping through some arbitrary hoops, etc.

I like the bias towards college degrees, ATP hourly mins for all airline jobs, an additional 121 crew ATP (not the hour reducing MPL nonsense though) over and above the current ATP, as well as military/turbine PIC requirements and all that jazz.

I don't think, however, that what we need in this regard is a European style system of educational hazing that punches us in the jimmies every day just to see if we can take it. Morris code practical tests, tons of asinine writtens that hardly anyone passes all of the first time, trivia persuit build me an airplane training philosophy and what not are simply not necessary. All that junk will do is harass everyone already here. By far the biggest barrier to entry we can have is higher hourly limits (not just total time but turbine, PIC, etc), fight for better rest and duty rules (fight against gutting relief pilots to pay for slight regional safety increases, which should come regardless) and the like.

But to say we need to spend our whole careers being evaluated on +/- 5 kts and 50 feet, answering how many electrons it takes to illuminate an overhead panel light and doing single engine NDB arcs in the mountains to hand flown CATIII mins with 30 knot gusting crosswinds while delivering our PhD dissertation on advanced thermodynamics is IMHO not going to do anything other than make all of our careeers miserable. I guess that might deter some from pursuing it, but that is a steep and unnecessary price to pay for some theoretical gateway to limit supply when there are other, far better and just as effective, ways of accomplishing the same thing without ruining the job portion of our careers.

Doctors once established don't sweat first year Anatomy every night, and they probably forgot 75% of it anyway. Successful businessmen don't remember the Calculus they took for their MBA. Not every pharmacist can ace their junior year chemistry test. That's OK, they are just barriers to entry. We can make our barriers higher, like every profession has, but it needn't apply to professionals "on the other side" although, of course as it is already, current standards would need to be maintained. Once passed, those rite of passage are put behind you like every other profession. Same for lawyers, engineers and every other profession. You still have to be competent in your job, but you don't go to work everyday beating back a witch hunt aimed at self fulfilling attrition by way of occupational mysery.

 

In the last yr, I have been on buses, trains, ferrys, vans, limos, and yes, camels around the world. 9 out of 10 modes of transportation have a tip jar on them and a crew member holding a hat out when you get off it. Why can't we? I know it won't raise my pay $25k/yr but it'll buy the beer that night. Think about it, besides wal-mart and most other retail establishment, where DON'T you see a tip jar these days? You tip the cab/van driver on the way to the airport, the skycap, starbucks girl/waitress at the airport, why not the most important person on that trip, the pilot(s) that get you there?

There have been alot of good points brought up here, none is THE answer, rather many of them grouped together are a better answer to the problems we have today.

 

You are absolutely right. They shouldn't be. Why? Because you have people lining up to join this fray. There is also a vast amount of ignorance as well as arrogance plaguing our industry, and your argument right up there is why I do not consider airline pilots to be 'professionals.' At least not in the US.

A true professional can leave his job, take his skills and experience and apply it somewhere else without skipping a beat, and even get an immediate raise by switching jobs. In the US airline industry... good luck with that.

Forget your newhires for a moment. Let's talk about that 767 captain...

So let's say he/she doesn't like the idea of merging with UAL and wants nothing to do with the new company. Well... can't pack up and go to Delta because he'll have to go back to making first year FO pay. How can you call that pilot a professional? He can't take his skills and go elsewhere.

On the other hand, you can have a G-IV pilot who was working for $140,000/year for Brand X. Now, this pilot notices things aren't quite right at his work, so this pilot decides to take his skills to Brand Y and he's fortunate that they value his experience and they're willing to start him at $155,000/year.

Which one of these is your "professional?" Apples and oranges?

OK, let's use airline-to-airline.

We all know that Emirates is in a huge hiring drive. They need something like 800 pilots within a year. Unlike in the US, at Emirates, your first year, you will live rather nicely. You'll have your housing fully paid for, utilities covered, you will be driven to/from work by the company, you will get your retirement, and you'll get your salary which ends up just being your pocket cash which is a little over $7000/month.

Let's say you spent 10 years at Emirates. You're a B-777 captain with several thousand hours in type, but you decide you don't want to be in Dubai anymore. You want to try something else. So you apply to Korean Air. You're hired, and off you go. Sorry, no $31/hour and back to FO on something, and you have commuting schedules. Instead, say hello to another 6-digit salary right off the bat.

Korean not your cup of tea? Wanna be in Europe? OK, there's Turkish Airlines - part of Star Alliance. You're based in Istanbul. Oh no... no $31/hour and disregarding your experience there either.

Let's suppose you're an FO... you're not a captain. No sweat... again, no $31/hour for you.

To answer your question as to why should newhires be paid more than pittance... if you don't know the answer to this, then you shouldn't be.

As I said before, pilots are their own worst enemies, and as long as US pilots continue to remain oblivious to the rest of the world and choose to remain beaten down, with no sense of their self-worth, and severely lagging behind their counterparts worldwide, they deserve everything they get.

US airline pilots should be the world leaders in every meaning of the word. The only thing the US airline pilots have over the rest of the world is experience. Your average US pilot is way more experienced than his counterpart overseas, and that's huge... but that inexperienced overseas counterpart is paid substantially more than a US pilot. Now, I don't know about you, but I find that embarrassing.

Until your average US pilot realizes that.....

 

A pilot that qualifies for food stamps does not have a safe ring to it.
Money affects lifestyle, lifestyle affects safety,and pax like safety.
Thats what I think I would have said.

 

Now, they look at the financial implications (the amount of debt necessary to get in and a career that is only worth about HALF what it used to be) and they don't start down the path.

If we want to attract the same caliber people to this profession that it has historically attracted, we are going to have to get the compensation back to what had been the norm for decades prior to the past few years. That will take care of the standards issue all by itself. But, in the meantime, I'm all for raising the standards too. Higher standards and higher compensation compliment each other.

 

Many pilots would consider tips an insult, because of the implication that passengers have the right to judge the quality of the pilot's work. Almost none of them are qualified to make such a judgment, even though they frequently do so. Besides, management and the IRS would start to include "imputed tip income" in our salaries, and act accordingly.

 

A tip jar would be great. It would make the news the very day.

The union brass would be shamed though.

Other than that, we should consider the benefits of grasping the union concept.

 

This is not true in all cases, the grass is not greener. I am on the other side and the above statement is riddled with ignorance.

In regard to tips, I have constantly heard pilots compare this profession to being a Doctor or a lawyer. Do you see a tip jar outside the OR? If you want to be paid like a Dr. or a Lawyer, quit and become one. Pilots are labor, you can only get paid what you can negotiate. Don't throw away your dignity for a lousy tip jar.


(I do agree in most cases that pilot pay needs to be improved)

 

So raise the bar to ridiculous levels so that the supply comes down. Interesting strategy.

Having several thousand hours before you reach that 300 instrument time should tell you how ridiculous that requirement would be.

 

So let me see if I understand this. You're living "on the other side" and because of that, my statement is riddled with ignorance?

What if I told you I was poached out of my last job with a very nice package and incentive to come on over as a captain on a large cabin bizjet? There ARE no certainties, you're right about that. However, in the US airline industry, it is ABSOLUTELY certain that you're going in as a first year FO making an insulting wage regardless of your experience.