Speeder
 

Nice to hear from you again speeder. I have wondered what you have been up to.

In answer to your questions:

You are correct, I didn't stay at most places long enough to upgrade. My goal was to work for Alaska Airlines and at the time upgrade wasn't a requirement nor was it all that common. Most of the people who I knew who got on at the majors were not captains in anything other than a Piper Navajo. Things began to change around the late 1990's.

By the time I arrived at Horizon Air upgrades began to slow down. In the interview the chief pilot lead me to believe that I would upgrade in about one year. After two years I still was a long way away from the left seat. At the time Alaska Airlines was also on a hiring freeze of Horizon Pilots. During the entire time I was there only 4 people successfully made the jump from Horizon to Alaska while 80 were hired from Skywest.

I began to pursue four companies; National Airlines, Vanguard, Jetblue and Legend for a job. At the time National Airlines was the sweetheart of the industry with brand new 757's and a promise to take over the world. They also were upgrading at a furious pace. One day they called and I thought, here is a way to kill two birds with one stone; double my pay and remove the Horizon Air stench so that I might be eligible for Alaska Airlines. It was a risk but to reach anyplace good takes risk. My thinking was that in perhaps 12 months I could be standing at Alaska Airlines door with a 757 type in my back pocket and raise my value 10 times over just another turb-prop captain.

My plan almost worked to. I had my shot at Alaska Airlines in January of 2002. I aced the sim and did well in the interview. Sadly for me that at that very moment the company decided to close down hiring and I was the least politically connected and failed to get the last seat in the ground school that they had already planned for. Out of 9 people only three were left after the simulator. In the waiting room and before the actual interview one of the guys got a phone call from his wife. She told him that Alaska Airlines had just called his company telling them that he was hired and his employer immediately forwarded the info to his wife. He had just finished telling us how his father was a check airman in the 737 at Alaska. Go figure?

My next move was to wait it out at National Airlines and hope to upgrade. Nine months later the company ceased operations. The next day I went to the home office in Las Vegas. The scene was surreal. It was like the last day of school at some crazed junior high school. Everyone was emptying their lockers and walking around in sandals and T-shirts. Some were walking out the door with plants and pictures from the walls. By the time I had finished my official business the last of the jets were taxing out for departure to storage in the desert. Their taxi path went right past the office. One after the other they slowly passed by the low sobs of everyone lined up at the fence to watch as their dreams flew away.

I tried to find another flying job but by then everyone else was on the street and I knew my chances were slim. I quickly moved my family back to my home town to a two bedroom apartment and an uncertain future.

I could have stayed and upgraded at the Forest service contractors I worked for but it took around five years and then they only flew a hundred to two hours per year. I would have been an old man by the time I reached marketability. I also could have stayed and upgraded at the jet charter operation that I was at however again it took a few years and the airlines didn't seem to like charter jet guys. In the entire history of that company no one was ever hired directly from them to a major and they had 5 jets and a few turbine planes. Over my career I left behind many good friends and to a man each one of them is still where I left them. I didn't want the same fate. I had bigger dreams of working for Alaska Airlines and was prepared to risk my career to get there.

I love it when a young student pilot excitedly tells me that his "instructor just got on at Horizon Air" I tell them that mine did too 15 years ago and they are still there. I too could have stayed at Horizon Air and be making 54K by now and living in a starter home in the suburbs of Portland, but compared to the life and career expectations of an Alaska pilot there is no comparison. In my opinion one needs to push for the gold ring or be destroyed trying. I wasn't satisfied with the future that Horizon Air was able to provide for me and my new family.

When I refer to 20 years of effort I include my first lesson at 15 through college, my CFI years all the way till I was laid off at 36. Literally I delivered newspapers and mowed lawns to buy an hour or two every other weekend. In college I worked two jobs to pay my way through college and flight training. Every spare dime went into the effort till I was completed with college and training. At the time I thought that my days of struggling were over. LOL


In conclusion all you have to do is to research the total number of new commercial pilot licences that are issued added to how many pilots the military trains every year. Then search the net to come to a total number of pilots to be retired this year by every major and you will see what I am talking about. (since the majors are not really growing anymore) Don't forget to remember that a large percentage of the pilots hired are re-treads from other airlines. AirInc likes to mislead people with their statistics. By my calculations around 2500 NEW plot positions open at the majors every year for easily 35,000 to 45,000 new commercial pilot career entrants plus the backlog of guys like me who have been bumped out of the system. For a new guy with a fresh pvt plt license the odds are easily 25 to one of reaching the promised land of the left seat at a stable major with a healthy paycheck and full retirement account, and those are Rangers stated odds.

The good news is that I have still reached my overall goal of having a growing and happy family. We camp and enjoy a rural life together. I live where I want and have all the power to choose what to do with each day. I also am living a lifestyle that is close to what I had hoped for a pilot for a major airline. It is very sad to see that part of my life go by the wayside but again I have to do what it best for myself and my family.


SkyHigh

The only time your posts really bug me is when you make such a ridiculous comment as to say that after 20 years you would be making 54K/yr. at this point. I've only met a few people in my young life, im sure there will be others, who embellish to such extremes like you do. You make silly connections throwing numbers like 1 in 25 and justify it with unreasonable numbers.

Listen anyone who sits on the online forums of their former careers and post nearly 1500 posts in the same time it took me to post 20 needs to reevaluate their situation. You can't honestly say that you are not bitter and dont regret ever leaving the airlines for the real world. If you were so comfortable with your decision to be a desk jockey you wouldn't sit in front of your computer and spend hours upon hours a week trying to dissuade others from pursuing their dreams.

I really dont want to come across as rude because im not sitting here trying to demean you or offend anyone, but really man, get a life. Go take half the time you spend on this site and double your profits with whatever it is youre doing now. Im gonna keep plugging away and doing what it is i love to do, even if im not gonna be a millionaire someday. Im confident that this profession will provide myself and my future wife and kids a nice little life in the burbs.

Opinions
 

My opinions have come from years of study and efforts. To make a clarification had I stayed at Horizon I would be earning 8 year pay right now and that is 54K. My overall point is that considering all the training and education and early years of sacrifice the sum total is 20 years of effort to earn only 54K.

If I were you I would study the past 30 years and continue the projection of the decline in pay and working conditions into the future things look bleak. You however should do what you feel is right for you.

Writing on these forums is a hobby for me. I enjoy the interactions with people such as yourself. This web site is all that remains of my career. I often receive PM's from people thanking me for telling it like it is.

SkyHigh

I've said it before and I'll say it again. To all those that complain about Skyhigh and his writings, but continue to respond to him...guess what, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM. If you don't want him to post anymore, IGNORE HIM. If you stop responding to his posts, he won't have anybody to argue with. Nobody on this forum is going to change his mind; as much as others may disagree with him, he is entitled to his own opinion. Responding to his comments just adds fuel to the fire. Cheers.

I agree.

Put him on your "ignore list".

Skyhigh, one thing that every good college student who took a critical thinking class knows that unsupported statistics mean nothing. You want to talk about the amount of commercial pilots that are being licensed every year as a basis for your argument then I think you should realize that may have no bearing on the acutal situation. At my school alone we produce up to 30 cpl's a month but three maybe four of those actually stay in the US to fly. Others go back to there home country and fly under their FAA licenses. If you want evindence that things are not as bad, look at the hiring of the airlines right now, mins are droping, legacies are starting to call back pilots and things are turning a corner hopefully for a while. The trends within the industry are the signs that things are not as bad as a few years ago. Pay will never be what it was, that is a fact, but the pay is still better then most jobs out there. One last thing, if you want to discuss the demise of this industry you need to realize that the airlines are not the only industry that is losing ground to rich and famous.

"I've said it before and I'll say it again. To all those that complain about Skyhigh and his writings, but continue to respond to him...guess what, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM."

Why would you not want to listen to him? I sit here and read his stuff, too, as a UPS Capt. Had I made a decision or two differently, I could easily be where he is. If you don't believe that it could happen to you then you have your head buried pretty deep in the sand.

Skyhigh came across too strong when he first came to this site. Even I blew him off. Seems like he's mellowed out now and you guys still give him a bunch of crap cause he's here telling his story. Like you want him to go away cause you don't want to hear it or consider it?

His story should be heard by everyone who gets into this biz so they see that the flight academy marketing that makes it look all so easy is a bunch of BS. It ain't easy and if you aren't lucky and have good timing then you might not reach the "big show". You really might not....

That's how it is and I think Skyhigh has been telling it pretty well, at least lately.

Does that mean you shouldn't pursue the career? Of course not but just be aware of the downside potential and understand the risks that are a part of this crazy airline pilot biz.

So here I sit in my roommates house where I rent a small room because I didn't want to sign a lease anywhere, might have to move too soon and it is too expensive to put down utility deposits. I saw this and it struck a chord. I am 32 now, been flying for 6 years. I have the degree, no criminal record, not even a speeding ticket. I have a perfect training record and I have been working hard the last 6 years, trying to check off the next box. I have moved every time I needed to in order to get that next job and gain experience. I took the crappy check hauling job because I thought it would look good on the resume. I moved to craphole Mississippi because I wanted to get the multi time. I have done everything to advance.

I am sitting here looking at a rejection letter from a fractional that decided they aren't going to interview me at this time even though I meet all the requirements. I am so dissapointed that I just don't know what to do, this was my shot at a decent life, I thought I had this one in the bag. However I will get up monday and go to work because that is what I do. I will send out more resumes because it has to get better, I hope. Go for your dreams if that is what you want, but prepare to meet some setbacks and dissapointments. Sometimes you can do everything right and it still not work and it is a serious gut punch.

I truly hope SkyHigh is wrong and that there is some great tomorrow out there. For now I am rapidly approaching middle age making 25,000 a year working for a company that has a stagnant seniority list and no upgrades in sight. When I hired on they told me that they were going to double in size, it didn't happen, for whatever reasons we shrank. I have been here over two years thinking upgrade was coming soon, now it is looking to be at least four more years, time for plan B. I think about going to the regionals and realize that I will be junior to people that have only been out of flight training for 6 months. Jobs that I was begging for 3-4 years ago are now hiring at 500-1000 hours. Timing is everything and contracts will screw you. It seems like I have signed a 1 year training contract about 1 month before every hiring spree, my timing has sucked. I can already look back and see where I made the wrong choices, but at the time they looked like the best bets.

I guess what I am saying is go for it if you really feel it. I was the over enthusiastic airplane geek once. It may work out, it may still work out for me. If it does I will be on here telling you how great life is. It also may not, you may be sitting on your couch in 6 years trying to figure out what went wrong and what to do next. Sometimes it gets hard to stay positive.

Skyhigh has very valid points. One thing he fails to mention is that any career move is a risk. Ask a steel worker if he thought it would be this bad for his industry back in the early 90s.

I'm not quite as bad off as Billy but I have to say that being a CFI isn't always easy. It gets tough when you have a week straight of low IMC and you aren't yet a CFII.

Skyhigh, Rickair, and a number of others on these boards do a good job of trying to dispell the "rich airline pilot" myth on this fourm with the less experienced members. I guess I'm lucky in that respect. I've pumped enough fuel and talked to enough pilots to know what I'm getting into. Through it all, one thing keeps me going. I could never sit in a cubicle after listening to some of my friends tell me about what they do all day.

Again with the incorrect stats. If you're going to throw around numbers, do the research. If you were still at QX, you'd be making about 62K if you were in the 200 and 80K in the 400, which is likely where you'd be if not in the RJ, or close to it.