Thanks
 

I appreciate the support, however at my age I can't imagine a company that is left standing that has much to offer over the life I have been able to build for myself.

One of the things that you older guys fail to address is that things are vastly different for those starting out today. The overall prospect of having a similar life as yourselves is slim to none. It seems that FedEx is the last bastion of the good old days since I can hardly recall few others who fly for other legacy carriers who attempt to contradict my opinions. It seems that FedEx alone harbors the old school opinions.

Perhaps we should capture some of you guys for a museum? :)


SkyHigh

Your as old as (who) you feel
 

I seem to recall you are not that old (maybe wishful thinking on my part ;) ) and would not be starting over, just restarting. Check the upstart threads, I'm sure there is something for a 40ish pilot willing to take a chance.


Thanks, Jurassic Park for pilots, you make me feeeeel soooooo good!! :confused:

Geez Skyhigh,
Almost every lawyer I know has these same discussions. Ask the majority of doctors paying over 100,000 a year in malpractice, how they like their decisions. I have an intern friend who can't wait to get out of medicine. I have family members that are attorneys, tell me how much they like their jobs. Good gawd man, you had a career and by your own admission your golden ring was Alaska and then maybe National. Did you want to stay in the west that badly or was some of the bases at SWA out of the question. If you had stayed at Horizon you would still be current, and soon everyone will probably be hiring. Airtran? maxjet/eos, new startups, Jetblue and on and on. Yeah the pay sucks for the first year (another issue) but their are plenty of golden rings out there for someone with time, talent and no skeletons.

So you missed out, quit whinning, enjoy what you are doing now, enjoy your family (it appears you do), but quit bad mouthing an industry where plenty of people have had success, albeit with some set backs. I thought I would have a cradle to grave deal with my legacy. Well they are in court as I type determining whether or not I will have a retirement.

PUT IN YOUR REVIEW MIRROR
Out.......

"Lots of spoiled, instant gradification brats on this site."

Im 32 have a wife and son. I have been in aviation for 8 years, No one has given me a cent for my degree or any flight time/ratings. I have worked 2 jobs most of my life.
How insulting to tell me I want instant gratification. Four years being payed as a professional pilot, and I have averaged just over 16k a year. About what your local gas station attendant makes.
I instructed more hours than anyone at my flightschool, slept in a hangar, after late flights to get up early for my other job. I flew with 135 pilots just for the chance to log a free 91 multi engine leg. I worked 2 jobs during my first year at a regional to stay aloft. Took vacation to clear out footings so I could pay my rent.
Given up all hobbys to make this work. I have never failed a checkride, or have any of my students! I dont

I have flown with many 10 year regional captains in socal, One who lives in a 2 bdrm 1200 sq foot 450k condo with three kids because that is all he can afford. (average home price in a safe neborhood is 650-700k).The only reason he can afford that is because his wife is a nurse. These guys have 6-7000 pic turbin their app/resume out at every major that exist, this country and others, with out even a bite. They have no retirement just a 4% match 401k.
Times have changed my friends.
If you love flying get a real career and buy your own plane and fly it when you want. I prommise at 35,000 feet the view dosent change much.

Advise
 

Thanks for the advice however I can't imagine that jobs in the near future will be all that tempting anymore. Perhaps if I got lucky in 5 years I could make as much as an urban garbageman but then again I would have to self fund my retirement.

I do however like to live on the west coast. In my opinion the ability to live where one wishes is the corner stone of a good quality of life. Even if I was lucky enough to get hired by SWA Baltimore isn't on my list of dream cities.

SkyHigh

Perhaps your doctor and lawer friends should open a UPS store or drive long haul? They could make more then 100K.

"The sky(high) is falling......The sky(high is falling.:eek:

I know a guy who is an executive chef in California, and he lives in a 900 sq. foot condo that he paid $300K for. The grass isn't always greener. California is a different story, and prices there are ridiculous. Pay, however, is not necessarily higher. My brother has a very good job, in the medical field. He makes close to six figures. His exact same job, for the same company, pays the same in California, as he makes in Mississippi. I just got done doing a search on google of "average" salaries. Salaries for a number of jobs I looked at are actually lower in California, than they are in places like Georgia, or Indiana. This friend of yours could probably look to bid for another base, get out of California, and live in a $450K house somewhere else, that would be a mansion compared to his California condo.

Secondly, I realize some people factor in if they were furloughed, but nobody should be averaging $16K over 4 years as a professional pilot. A first year FO makes over $16K per year.

Pilot pay is not that bad. I get sick and tired of seeing people complain about a six figure salary, as though it is chump change. Do you know how low the percentage is of people in this country earning six figures or more? VERY VERY VERY low. Some of you make it sound like people outside of aviation are making all the money, and that isn't even close to true. 95% or more of people in this country make salaries no different than the typical regional pilot. Regional captains are actually, statistically, among some of the higher wage earners in this country. Just because the $300K a year job that you only work 10 days a month doesn't exist in the airlines, that much, anymore, doesn't mean it still isn't a good job. Some of you were into piloting for nothing more than money, if because of those jobs being scarce, you think it isn't worth it anymore. Go be a doctor, and still make $200K a year, while paying out the nose in malpractice, and work 60 hours a week.

The airline went through some issues after 9/11. before 9/11, you didn't hear all of these complaint. The airlines are improving, and in a few years, I expect the majority will be hiring again. Then, those who get out now will wish more than ever they had stayed in.

I haven't replied because I only have so much time to spend on this board, and this thread has the makings of a verbal quicksand pit. I'm loving my job at Delta; despite the setbacks, it's still a pleasure to go to work. Most trips are like little vacations. While the pay is not what it once was, it's still not bad, when compared to what many of my neighbors make.

The working conditions are good- we still have decent work rules, and most of the people I work with are good guys. When you ask someone to do something for you, they do it. Period. (I also work outside of Delta, and I know how hard it is to get something done for you promptly and accurately).

Now, I'll grant you that the left seat of a 757 is better than the right seat of an MD88, but I enjoyed the time I spent there, too. The common thread for me is that I've always been senior in whatever category I was in; quality of life has always trumped take-home pay.

I had many chances to walk away from this career (some of them for more money), and I'm still glad I didn't do it.

To anyone who is contemplating this career: Give it a try. I'd rather regret something I did than something I didn't do.

cost to live
 

[QUOTE=ChrisH;58361]

Secondly, I realize some people factor in if they were furloughed, but nobody should be averaging $16K over 4 years as a professional pilot. A first year FO makes over $16K per year.

Pilot pay is not that bad. I get sick and tired of seeing people complain about a six figure salary, as though it is chump change.

[QUOTE=ChrisH;58361]


In the Portland Oregon area the median income for a family of four is $68,000. In order to enjoy a fully funded and healthy middle class lifestyle in most urban and suburban areas in America today it easily takes 100K for a family of four.

Don't forget to add: mortgage, student loans, self funded retirement plans, college savings for children, possible support for aging parents and then comes the normal living expenses.

An average starter house in the Seattle or Portland area is around 300K. An average mortgage will consume almost half of the take home pay of a 100K salary. Add a $1000 student loan and you are getting the picture.

It would be a mistake to base income expectations on what it costs to live back home. Things are very different in the big cities where the flying jobs are.


SkyHigh

I'm glad you made that statement. That is my point exactly. Look at the salaries of people outside of aviation. They are not making more than pilots. They are not making more, in a majority of cases, of even a regional captain.

What SkyHigh, and some others, like to do, is take the salary of some person they know, or have heard of, such as a paramedic starting at $50K, and in nine years, topping out at $100K, and making it seem as though that is the norm. If you look at average salaries of paramedics in the United States, for example, you'll find it is $25K. You can't just use a rare person making some large salary in a job you wouldn't think they would make that much, and act like it is normal. Truth is; the majority of jobs do not have salaries that exceed the $60K-$80K range topped off. That is within the range of what a regional airline captain makes. The jobs that make $80K-$100K, or more, are actually very few, and rare, just as are the $300K, 10 day a month jobs in aviation. They do not come close to making up the majority.

What I find amazing, is that it is airline pilots themselves that tend to be the ones responding to SkyHigh, and telling him he is wrong. They of all people should know. I think SkyHigh is trying to convince himself, more than anybody else, of the things he is saying, because he knows he messed up, and would love nothing more than to be flying. Salaries are not nearly as bad as SkyHigh makes them out to be, and not nearly as high in other careers as he tried to pass them off to be. That is truth. I've looked up the statistics myself.

SkyHigh, from what I understand, owns his own business. The statistic of businesses that start and fail are very high. This means he has been lucky thus far with his business. Find a message board of business owners, and there is probably someone just like SkyHigh saying not to spend the money, time, and effort to open a business, because his failed, and as a result, everyone else's will, and it is not worth it. Listen to this, and SkyHigh wouldn't be experiencing a successful business now. Find a message board for any career, at that, and you will find a SkyHigh of that career. Just because it doesn't work you one person, doesn't mean it will not work for someone else.

SkyHigh has never mentioned what he makes with his business. While that is personal information, and I don't expect him to post that here, I'd be willing to say it is not much more, if more at all, than a regional captain, in the $60K to $80K a year range. If it is more, it probably isn't more than a major captain, or even an FO at some airlines like FedEx, UPS, SWA, and some others. He would then add that someone getting to the majors is going to be a rarety, and most will spend their career at a regional. I disagree. I believe that most majors will begin hiring, again, in the next few years, if not before. I think those who are in aviation now, or will be getting into aviation in the coming years, will have a very realistic shot at the majors, and thus a six figure salary. Before 9/11, I never saw the complaints, and issues I read now. The airlines are recovering, and will pull back to their pre-9/11 days, I believe. I know many others who share my view. Sometimes you experience hard times, but it isn't just the airline industry that is, and has gone through this. I know of doctors who wish they had not become doctors, and would like to get out of medicine. Like the poster above who stated their friend is as intern, and wants out. The average salary of a doctor is $216K per year. That is after 10 years of medical school, long, long hours, working as an intern, making very little, and paying tons in malpractice. Again, the grass isn't always greener. Some people like to bring up real estate agents they know of making $300K. Average real estate agent salary is $35K per year. In fact, most real estate agents are real estate agents as a second job, not their primary job. Again, I say, the grass ain't always greener. Look at the average, not just the rare person you know, or have heard of, pulling in a large salary. Because that is not the normal.