paladin

In keeping with the forum's guidelines I think a new thread is in order.

A quote from Gunter;

"Paladin also needs to read the book "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Unions may have brought a few airlines down but they improved safety in manufacturing and kept up the average wage higher for many years. That is not happening now. Is it the union's fault or a diabolical plan from "The Man"? I think the last. Unions have done some bad things, but for every one of them I can point out several bad managerial behaviors."

I have read “The Jungle” and must say that books authored by “Socialist Muckrakers” do not move me. The book has been refuted as being explicitly a work of socialistic propaganda that ends with a long speech on the coming socialist revolution. In 1906 there was a report by the Department of Agriculture's Bureau of Animal Husbandry and investigators provided a point-by-point refutation of the worst of Sinclair's allegations, some of which they labeled as "willful and deliberate misrepresentations of fact," "atrocious exaggeration," and "not at all characteristic." The underlying message or theme of the book is that socialism was the only tool and remedy that was available for America’s poor and underprivileged to effectively fight the so called “Robber Barons” of the era. Sinclair’s friend and philosophical soul mate, Jack London, had this too say in a promo that was approved by Sinclair himself: “Dear Comrades: . . The book we have been waiting for these many years! It will open countless ears that have been deaf to Socialism. It will make thousands of converts to our cause. It depicts what our country really is, the home of oppression and injustice, a nightmare of misery, an inferno of suffering, a human hell, a jungle of wild beasts. And take notice and remember, comrades, this book is straight proletarian. It is written by an intellectual proletarian, for the proletarian. It is to be published by a proletarian publishing house. It is to be read by the proletariat. What "Uncle Tom's Cabin" did for the black slaves "The Jungle" has a large chance to do for the white slaves of today.”

I have, as someone suggested, also read “Flying the Line” and while the book is an entertaining and romantic account of the early days of ALPA I have found Hopkins historical perspective to be typical of many popular accounts concerning the rise of unionism. Unfortunately, these accounts belong in a book of fairy tales and not in any serious discussion of economic or airline history. At one point in the book where Hopkins is writing about “What’s a pilot worth” he writes “But in the real world people get paid what they are worth only if they have the muscle to command it”. Sounds like something Al Capone would say and it is BS.

In a free-market economy the price of labor is determined in the same manner as most factors of production. The employers must bid competitively for the services of workers. They do not lower wages because they are cruel and part of a diabolical plan to bring havoc to its workers, nor do they raise wages because they are kind. Wages are prices paid for human labor and like all prices are determined by supply and demand.

I am not prepared to say that unions have unilaterally “brought a few airlines down” but their members, many of whom have an over inflated opinion of how much they should be paid, have contributed to the demise of most that are now or have in the past been in financial difficulty. However, I would be remiss if didn’t acknowledge that the same is true of many airline exec’s.

Another quote from Gunter
"Question for you Paladin---
Are you saying there is never an issue for you that comes up as needing to be changed at a place of employment?

Or are you just saying after the "necessary" fixes are made the union hangs around sucking up dues and doing way more than is asked of it (perhaps doing harm or just being a troublemaker)? I could agree with the last at times."

An answer for you Gunter----
Of course there are issues that arise in the work place that need to be changed. I am among the first to say we have a right to organize into unions, provided no one is forced to join. Unions provide a great value for keeping members advised of current market conditions. They are also an effective means for employee groups to bargain for wages and work rules. If it happens that an employer is paying wages that, in the market context are too low, a strike or the threat of a strike can compel him to change his policy if he finds it would be too costly to replace his work force for the wages he offers. However, it is a myth to believe that unions are the sole reason for any rise in the standard of living. The problem with unions as I see it is when the leaders finish what we have asked them to do they get “Potomac Fever” and, much like the politicians in Washington, invent ways to justify their position. And yes they do end up hanging around and sucking up dues and doing way more than was ever asked.

Eric Stratton

so would you do away with the minimum wage then too?

management maynot be cruel but most have lost their ethics. they now see employee paycuts/work rules as a way to increase productivity while believeing that they shouldn't have to take paycuts as well but actually believe they should get a pay raise because they increased productivity by reducing labor costs. a little bit of a double standard in my mind. this is the philosophy from a general mills contract negotiator that that I know.

so how do you feel about your old CEO taking an increase in his retirement package right before CAL asked it's employees for paycuts. free market society or is it bullsheet.

ryane946

It's good to see a capitalist on these boards. There's certainly a lot of love for labor unions around here. I'm a total fiscal conservative and a laissez faire capitalist.

paladin

The only way I would support a minimum wage is if it were at least $500,000 per year. That's ridiculous I know; but no more ridiculous than the principle behind minimum wage legislation. When the cost of an employee is more than the employee is able to produce for the employer he becomes a liability and it makes no sense for him to be employed at the firm. You cannot make a person worth an arbitrary amount by passing a law against offering him less. The only result is you deprive that person of the right to earn the amount that his capabilties and situation would permit.

No argument from me that many Corporate bosses have lost their ethics. Some were never taught in the first place. ala Skilling and the whole Enron crew.

If you are refering to Bethune I don't feel anything. The Board of Directors made that decision. They run the company and if the stockholders, at least the ones that have a vote on such matters, buy off on it so be it. I am not saying you have to like it, but no one has a gun to their head forcing them to work there. They are free to leave. So I guess it is free market capitalism. It may not always be pretty but it is the most moral social system ever devised by man and I fully support it.

There have been a couple of people on this site who have suggested a reading list. Well I have a couple of suggestions for those who dare to pick up the gauntlet and meet the challenge to jettison, or at least call into question all the statist thinking that goes on here:
Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt and Ayn Rand's "Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal".

paladin

Thanks, I too support laissez faire capitalism. It is not the labor unions I loathe but the collectivism that surrounds and is so fundamental to the thinking of many of those who support them.

joel payne

You don't get paid what you deserve, you get paid WHAT you negotiate. If you want the REALLY big bucks, go to CEO school and major in thievery.

Two-percent

Everyone:

Paladin is not a pilot. Paladin hates pilots and trolls for this type of discussion. He's a bankrupt, friend of an ex-independent contractor at former Airborne Express (Now DHL) insurance salesman. Here's his website

http://www.exdhl.com/

He spends years (literally) arguing with people. You will never win this argument. His presence on this site is like a carcinoma, he'll never go away and will probably spread. Quit unless you plan on wasting days of your life trying to construct a logical debate with this guy. You've been warned. Caveat emptor.

John Pennekamp

Paladin, how do you feel about paying $3.00+ for gas? Or 30% of your take home pay on healthcare? In "laissez faire capitalism" only the wealthy prosper. The middle class dies, and the poor continue to live off the system. Clearly, you are not a "working man". Spare us your elitist anti-union rant.

If socialism is so bad, how do you explain the high standard for quality of life in countries like Britain, Canada, France, Italy, etc. Why haven't they dumped their socialist systems? Bear in mind, we're talking socialism here, not communism. You do know the difference, don't you?

paladin

Wrong on both accounts 2%. Although I know someone who once flew for Airborne. No one can ever win a debate when all they can bring to the table is range-of-the-moment thinking and whim worshiping.

John Pennekamp

You seem a big Ayn Rand fan. I've read her fantasies like The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. Good read, but not too realistic.

Atlas shrugged? Sure, I'd love to see all of the elitists in society withdraw to a private kingdom and cheer the downfall of society. *tongue firmly planted in cheek*. Will you be joining them anytime soon?