Comparison of Delta/Southwest benefits
 

I have about a yr to go for mil retirement and trying to gather as much info fm various companies. I have friends/fmr colleagues flying for all the majors, both pax and cargo. Over the yrs I have heard their reasons for focus on certain companies. Some of them chased the highest base pay. History has shown that has not been the best deciding factor because some ended up as car salesmen and carpenters in between furlough/rehire. That is why I am curious about company benefits to factor into the equation.

Looking for objective facts for comparison/targeting of these two companies as far as long term benefits in addition to base salaries. Some info on APC, but is it current/accurate?

Look forward to input fm the respective company pilots.


-Number of paid vacation/sick days annually

-401K min/max annual contribution limits and how much matched by company

-Stock options

-Relocation allowance

-Education benefits for employee & family

-Travel benefits IE: Passes on commercial flts for employee & family or possible "Space A" seats on company acft

-Upgrade to CAPT timeline

-Life/License (FAA) insurance

-Medical insurance for employee & family (Is there requirement to participate?)

-Any other pertinent benefits not listed

This is just my opinion so take it for what its worth. As a mil retiree, you have medical care covered and it is probably better and definitely cheaper than either company. To me though the airline job is different than I thought it would be when I separated, I think you have that figured out too, but I say it because I actually DIS-counted the cargo companies when I got off active duty...In retrospect, this was due to ignorance.

Ask yourself 2 questions, they are the only important ones IMO:

1. Where do you want to live? Try to get with an airline that has a base that is driving distance from there.

2. What sort of flying do you want to do? International or only domestic? SWA may, with the airtran acquisition fly international lite, but its unlikely they will fly to Frankfurt or Shanghai. If you are interested in international flying - which IMO is infinitely a better job than domestic, focus only on airlines that do that flying, including cargo.

All of the other benefits are just the next contract or bankruptcy away from being different/worse.

I retired from AF about 3yrs ago. It might sound cliched, but apply to all, interview everywhere and if you're lucky/blessed take the best fit for you. It might not be DAL or SWA. Get out of the mind set of only one company will work for you. You have to lose the military loyalty thing to a degree. Make the interviewer know you want to work for his company over all others...be ready to change your mind if a better offer comes up.

I applied at several majors (not SWA). Got interviewed and hired by one I didn't have any internal recs, one I thought a long shot at best.

As far as who's on top now...it doesn't matter, it will surely change. Contracts, equipment, networks, payrates and everything can change. SWA and DAL are only similar in that they carry passengers. One is domestic and one flies to world-wide. But I'd take the job with whoever offered it and be thankful.

Happily executing the flows in the right seat of the Maddog.

KODI,

I'll do my best to answer what I can. The info on the APC pages is usually pretty accurate, but often doesn't paint the complete picture.

Don't know much about SWA. At Delta:

- Paid sick leave is done in hours based on Years of Service. First year is (I believe) 75 hours/year, and goes up from there to 240 hours/year at 12 years of service. The caveat is you are only paid at 100% for the first 300 hours in a rolling 3 year period. For example, I use all 240 hours this year at 100% and all 240 hours next year. Only the first 60 hours next year are paid at 100%, then the remaining 180 hours are paid at 70 or 75% (can't remember because I've never come close to it.) You still get the hours paid out, but at a reduced rate. Generally, if you don't use more than 100 hours/year (less is better in case of a future unknown) then you will be paid at 100% for your sick time.

Sick time is supplemented with short term and long term disability depending on how long you are out for. Further, long term disability is supplemented by pilot funded DPMA (Delta Pilots Mutual Aid). The purpose of this is to fill the gap between long term disability (50% of your salary) and what you would have made if you weren't out of work. If you are a member of DPMA (somewhere north of 98% of Delta pilots are) you are entitled to up to 2 years of benefits, but may only use a maximum of 1 year per event. To get the 2nd year, you have to return to work for at least 1 day, and/or have a separate event.

-401k. By the time you get out of the military Delta pilots will be getting 14% of their salary into their Defined Contribution (DC) plan. The company puts this in whether you contribute anything to your 401k or not. It is a contribution, not a match. Your contributions are limited by IRS regulations - $16,500 if under 50 and I think you can do an extra $5000 if you're over 50. Not an expert on this stuff, as I'm not an old guy (yet) so someone else will chime in with better info. Total contributions for the year (your contribution + the company contribution) are capped at $49,000/year. Not too many guys are hitting that mark in a normal year. This is one thing that a lot of guys want to see increased.

-No stock options. There have been occasional equity distributions to the pilot group as a result of bankruptcy, merger, pension termination, etc, but we don't regularly have stock options. We do get profit sharing that is calculated based on if/how much the company makes. We just received profit sharing checks a few weeks ago for 2010 that were approximately equal to 6.5% of the pilot's 2010 W2.

-Relocation allowance - This only comes into play if you are involuntarily displaced out of your position. For example, you are a Detroit 767ER First Officer and things start moving backwards. The company will publish a surplus bid and suddenly you are not senior enough to hold your current position. You can then preference where you would like to go instead, and if that is to a different base (say Salt Lake City A-320 First Officer) the company will pay to relocate you. There are some restrictions, but this is basically the only way the company will pay for your move.

-Education benefits - You and your family will be able to apply for various Delta scholarships, but there is no education allowance to my knowledge. Someone with more info on this could help out here.

-Pass Travel - Pretty decent pass travel benefits on Delta and Delta Connection carriers. All travel is standby and you pay $50/year to activate your travel account. Boarding for available seats is in seniority order, with a few exceptions. We are able to purchase tickets on Delta at a reduced rate if you want to have a confirmed seat. Eligible travelers are: you, spouse, parents, and dependents.

You get 8 buddy passes/year to give out if you wish, but they're rarely worth it. The buddy still has to pay a little bit for them, and they have the worst boarding priority (ie behind all the other eligible travelers.) I generally shy away from handing these out, as you will inevitably end up playing travel agent when your friend gets stranded.

Pilots can list the jumpseat and for the most part have a confirmed seat on mainline Delta aircraft, subject to booking timeframe restrictions. This is especially helpful if you will be commuting.

-Upgrade time - Hopefully sooner than later :D Your guess is as good as mine. We have over 12,000 pilots and roughly half are captains. With relatively minimal retirements over the next 5 years, there will not be much movement. After around 2017 and beyond, we hit a huge wave of mandatory age 65 retirements that continues for over a decade. A large majority of the list will leave during that timeframe. If you are young enough (under 40, which is sounds like you're probably not) then you will have a good last 15 to 20 years here. Otherwise you will probably top out at widebody copilot or junior narrowbody captain.

A lot of things can/will change this. How many guys actually make it to 65? Can we hold the line or recapture RJ flying? International codeshare/Joint Venture agreements and their resultant allocation of flying? New aircraft orders? Economy? Oil? ????????

The short answer is you need to be happy and comfortable as a First Officer, because you're probably going to be one for a LONG time. Don't take this job because you like the Captain payrates. Talk to your buddies about what their W2 looks like and how many nights away from home they spend a month. Those are the biggest factors that reflect how good the rest of our contract items are structured.

- Life insurance - Delta provides approximately $1.5 million in life insurance for each pilot. You can select less if you don't need all of it, as you will pay imputed taxes on the portion of this that is over the IRS limit and thus considered income. Again, I don't know the exact limit, but it's not terribly expensive.

Loss of License - You can buy this through ALPA, and is independent of Delta. I have looked at it several times over the years and keep coming to the conclusion that it's not worth it. To each, his own.

- Medical Plan - There are plenty of options to pick a medical plan that works for your family. Participation is NOT mandatory. I'm on my wife's plan, as her employer offers a better one. I assume you're asking because you will have retiree medical from the military. There are plenty of mil guys on here that can give you much better gouge on that than I can.

I'm all typed out. I'm sure others will pipe in with some things I left out. Both companies are great choices, but ultimately one will probably be a better fit for you. None of this matters until you have a job offer with each anyways, so start networking with your buddies NOW that way you can have something lined up before you get out. Again, the mil guys can tell you better how to approach the timeline, but you probably want to have an application in with Delta ASAP, in case they open the hiring window. If you get behind the hiring curve, there will be that many more resumes flowing in that you will be competing with.

Thanks for your service, and hopefully we'll see you in a year! :)

As an important fringe benefit, Delta has DC9s, MD88s and MD90s. Soon SWA will have 717s.

So in that sense, SWA is catching up quickly with Delta in that all important benefit of having a Man's Plane instead of a pudgy football that resembled the back end of a cat as it taxis out in front of you.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1298688332

But give SWA some credit, they do have some fun paint jobs.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1298688573

Still a butt. :D

Back to your originally scheduled and much more important conversation on benefits. I have nothing of value to add.

hahahaha! you kill me ftb...

Great post LeineLodge. Very informative, even for a Delta guy like myself. Thanks.

I'm a mil retiree whose been flying commercially for a legacy since 2001 (albeit with a nasty furlough thingy in between). While I applaud your strategic vision I have to offer a little bit of a warning shot across your bow. Take it for what its worth and don't let it deter you as to where you want to go.

Flying commercially isn't what you are used to. In some ways, its a QOL improvement, in others, its a definite downgrade. Don't expect what is today's norm at any company to be tomorrow's norm. In the military, we all had a unified purpose and goal. In the commercial flying industry, the goal is the company and its profits. You are but an instrument to either achieve those profits or hinder them. Its all about the pilot contract. What one company might offer today, another might trump tomorrow. What one union might promise today, might most likely disappear tomorrow.

As an earlier poster said, instead of shooting for a particular company, shoot for the place you and your family want to live (commuting absolutely sucks) and what you think you could possibly bear in terms of pay and benefits in the future. If you want to fly domestically, there are companies that cater to that. If you want to fly internationally, there are other companies that will accommodate that. If you want to fly pax vs cargo, obviously there are companies that can meet those goals.

Bottom line: from one mil retiree to another, don't become target-fixated. Throw the net. Today's American Idol is tomorrow's also ran.

Congrats on your retirement and thank you for your service. I know from where you come.

I retired in 08 and have been with Delta since terminal leave. Now that my bonafides are out of the way, let me give you some opinion. Where you live is absolutely key. Unless you hate your family and have restless feet living in base is a must for air line pilot QOL. If your family is flexible and your kids are either grown or little, spread the net wide and take what comes. Since only SWA, Delta, and FedEx seem to be hiring in the immediate future, your choices are limited. Apply to all three plus everyone else and take the job. Then move to base.

If you are wedded to a particular location that is not close to a base that is junior enough for you to hold in a short time, seriously consider another occupation. I like my job and I like the Big Widget and all the fine folks I work with but If I could find a job that made as much and let me sleep in my own bed with family every night, I'd take it.

Buzz, I don't know how you do it, between flying for Delta and your other commitments. Your wife must be a saint and your children must be perfect. Or your feet really stink and they like you gone so they can fumigate!:D

I have heard the complete opposite from several Delta guys around the system. They all say they are going to start retiring like crazy in 2 years or so.

Interesting, you post a contradictory statement without having any facts. Based upon age 65 retirements Leine's info is correct. Unless you have magically gotten inside the heads of everyone younger than 65, Dash, your statement is pure fluff.

Scheduled Retirements (Age 65)

2011 - 8
2012 - 19
2013 - 100
2014 - 159
2015 - 217
2016 - 359

This is from a pilot group of over 12,000. After 5 years the retirements increase and that is when the movement will happen, unless another merger, SARS, Bird Flu, WWIII, Wall Street meltdown, etc. Just Sayin, been waiting for the pilot shortage since the mid 80s.

I agree with Scambo1, your statement is pure fluff.

The X factor is when will the Age 65 guys retire? It's a unknown that's add more difficulty to the equation.

The vast majority of the post age 60 guys are still in the cockpit. Whether they stay all the way to 65, or stop short at 63-64 is unknown, but at the moment, the numbers aren't encouraging.:(

There were only supposed to be about 20 retirements last year and I moved up over 130, (thank you NWA guys).

Back on topic, as a SWA guys who has friends and family working at DAL, I think you really don't want to overthink this.

The single biggest factor in your happiness will be your commute. I commuted for a short while and then have been lucky enough to hold my hometown since. The difference in QOL is huge. The difference in the amount of money you can make in domicile is big too.

You have the capability to be happy or unhappy at either airline regardless of how the math works out.

Capt upgrade at SWA is kind of a wild card right now. There are all sorts of post AAI growth rumors right now, and if they're all true we'll all be captains next year:D. On the other hand, if we keep the slow growth we currently have, you may never make captain at your age.

No, my wife is saint..and she's pretty hot too. You have to fly with me to see her pix.:D

I show my "pix" to the guys just before the MV, completely puts them in the right place.

Chill out there scambo...I was merely saying what some Delta guys have said. This was the first time I have heard anything different. Geez

Those were all the North guys SWEARING that everyone would retire at 60 and half their list would be gone in 5 years.:rolleyes:

PS not trying to start a food fight, just poking a little fun like the Super Premium stuff.:)

I have been furloughed since 2008. The grass is always greener. Try flying the cubicle 8 hours a day. I would rather be flying and have solid time off than be locked up all day.

The cockpit of a 737 in a 6hr flight to the west coast looks and feels awfully like a cubical sometimes, albeit one with a window.

Very true.

Whether you're a swinging single guy, seriously dating, married, married with kids, divorced, 2x divorced, 3x divorced, what have you, try not to commute unnecessarily.

All of the fun of the job can be sucked out when you have 1 day off between long trips and all you're concerned about is the pending weather system, seat loads and trying to get to the airport in time to be the first to ask for the jumpseat on that probably full RJ.

All trips are commutable when you live in base which means a 4-day trip is at worst a 4-day trip but it doesn't take much for commuting to easily turn 4-day trips into 6 day marathons.

I've lived in base with Delta, commuted with Delta, lived in 2 bases and commuted to all 3 bases with Expressjet and absolutely nothing compares to living in base in a place you want to live. So if at all possible try not to box yourself in that corner unnecessarily especially at the beginning when you have a lot of avenues.

Double dog true. Tried to commute this week and the loads were massive. 25-35 NRs+ per flight with 2 to 3 seats available, 6-7 flights in a row. Capacity is expected to further shrink which should make profits go up, but commuting QOL go down.

Hey that's one advantage for you Delta dudes to SWA arriving in the ATL: 300+ flights/day (with no RJs!) will make commuting a whole lot easier! :D

Maybe a little better, but I don't think a whole lot better. Airtran already operates hundreds of flights (no RJs) and I don't think there is much excess gate capacity either.

Scoop

Bingo.. not much is going to change except the paint scheme and Clark Howard loudly orgasming on the radio every morning.

And how the hell is this different than the military nowadays????? Agreed with everything you said but lets call a spade a spade. In the service you are subjected to whatever the powers that be decide what's best for you. Some get lucky some don't. My advice if you are past 10 go for the retirement. If not look at your other options.

How can you ugly up the forum with that cubs thingy and not expect me to cancel it out with my White Sox stuff? We have to try to keep it nice around here. :D

This is the year we win I tell ya!!!!!!!!! :D

i'd like to ask clark howard where he is finding all these cheap flights on SWA? tried SWA out of SEA for July, and ALK is cheaper by $60...? clark must have stock or something?

Clark's lover is a gay SWA FA. Has to be. I've never seen anyone so gaga over saving $15 to go from BHM to STL.

Just don't steal my stapler.....;)

The only thing for sure it that when the Cubs are projected to be bottom dwellers, they do good and make the playoffs. When they are projected to "win it all," they stink up the joint.

You guys might have a chance this year. :D

Somehow I don't think very many of those "300+" flights are going to be between any of the Delta hubs or from places where most Delta pilots commute from to the hubs. But thanks for trying..... :) Besides, doesn't Airtran already operate around 280 flights out of ATL now, so SWA is really only adding 20-30 more flights.

Okay we got the domicile thing - So anyone have the general info on SWA benefits?

Did someone say general lee? :D

Read what you just wrote. Try and find some places DL and friends doesn't already fly out of ATL... Traverse city maybe?


FL used to operate over 300 flights but reduced them...