Take scope back, you won't hear a peep from me. Until then asking someone to quit their job with out a real solid reason isn't a good plan either. The whole system is skewed. Too much based on seniority and not enough equality across the board. Ideally the best thing for all of us is to narrow the gap between topping out and the bottom.

Can you answer a question you "deflected" earlier? How many(what percentage of) non-121, non-military guys has your airline hired?

If the number is as low as I expect, question 2 is: how are aspiring major airline pilots supposed to get qualified to apply if they don't fly for a regional?

On a different subject: When did I ever show "glee" about the present market wages?

Finally, I did in fact turn down Cathay's offer: HK$880,000 signing bonus and the monthly salary HK$48,687. That's at 17% income tax. I have absolutely no reason to lie. I guess if I had a good reason to I could scan my job offer and e-mail it to you, but I really couldn't be bothered. This whole thread is about your poor stewardship of the profession and now your "deflection" towards the guys you outsourced the jobs to.

I never deflect answers ace. I was not able to accurately answer his question with regard to my entire company. I could only accurately answer the make-up of my class. Now if I was you, I could have answered a different question altoghether...you would have at least understood that.

The way many OTHER guys that are getting hired by FedEx, SWA, Delta, etc., are getting qualified. Most via the military, some via corporate, some via foreign carriers, and some via the non-sched freight world. And yes, some guys get hired from the regionals. I know it's key to your "argument" that you can only get qualified in today's world by joining a regional, but you are just plain wrong.

Glee may have been a poor choice of words on my part. Your posts however do reflect a strong defense of what you make as appropriate per market forces.

I know that's what you're trying to make this thread about, but once again you are wrong. Go back and re-read the originator's post. Then come back and tell me that Quagmire thought this thread is about the poor stewardship of the profession.

Carl

"In my class, there were 60% military, 20% furloughed from other airlines (I was in that group), and 20% flew for commuter airlines."

Assuming these numbers are fairly representative of your company, I rest my case.

You are going out on a limb again to try and dilute the argument. You are absolutely correct that the above is not arguable but no one was ever arguing that. All of that is purely common sense and I don't hate hearing it. You sir are the one who hates hearing where most of the blame lies and your silly defense mechanism is to demonize regional pilots.

It is ludicrous that you think regional pilots should all go pound the pavement to solve your problems. You need to take your bitterness and anger back in house if you want to improve this industry. Major airline pilots have the real power to change things. You all had the power in the first place but unfortunately when you stood up for what you felt you were worth you did it at other pilots expense and at the expense of the industry. I'm all for standing strong to fight for the highest possible wages but not with the consequence of screwing your scope language or the junior guys.

Elitist pilots will always be the bean counters best friend.

Fugazi, you're right. Major airline pilots bear responsibility for selling scope.

However, except for you, none of the other folks going after Carl want to address his central thesis: Every hour you fly for a commuter at those wages further degrades your chances (and everyone else's) of flying for a major airline.

I'm not passing judgement, I have nothing but respect for the guys that have such a love of flying that they are willing to take out crippling student loans and work under such challenging conditions to pursue an airline career. I also admire the work ethic it must take. I just respectfully submit that we must concede Carl's point: Flying outsourced work for peanuts is just making that goal less attainable.

To be fair, Carl didn't tell anyone to go pound pavement to solve his problems. (I should also point out that it's not just his problem or mine. It's your problem, too). He has just righty pointed out that there are other paths to that goal that do not degrade the brass ring that we aspire to.

Relatedly, one major source of competition for a commuter pilot's place in the majors is, in my opinion, being quickly reduced. That is the number of military trained aviators that want seek a career in the airlines. Around my last sqadron, more guys were either staying in the military or pursuing other careers. (MBA, Law School, Medical School). A lot of them don't really see the airlines as a profession any more... More like something you do to supplement your retirement or to do in addition to your guard or reserve job.

I'm not saying those are my attitudes or opinions. I'm glad to be here and I think we should be very proud of our profession. Unfortunately, they are the thoughts of a good many others.

Respectfully,

Whidbey

What case would that be?

Carl

I've never shirked my responsibility and my blame for being part of the major pilots' group that caved in on scope. If you had read my previous posts, you would know that. But you clearly read what you want into posts with which you disagree.

Never advocated such a thing. Further proof of what I've said above.

This is another sad and puzzling side-effect of working for a regional. On the one hand, you youngsters demean us for not caring for the profession. But when we try to raise the bar for the profession by improving pay and working conditions, you say we did it on the backs of other pilots and the industry as a whole. Are you not used to people seeing your transparent arguments where you are never to blame?

Translation: Since I just got through saying that increases in the profession can only happen on the backs of others and the profession itself, what I'm really saying is "I'm NEVER for standing strong to fight...for anything."

Actually, we're the bean counters' worst enemies. It's those that work for beans...that the bean counters really love.

Carl

Thanks Whidbey...that's exactly what I've been trying to say. I'm just not as eloquent as you.

Carl

In Russia, quote posts you.

Hook, line and sinker! You nailed it Carl... finally. Now put this ****ing post to bed.... or get back to constructive arguments. We all agree that Regionals (pay in particular) suck and that the world would be a better place if the flying went back to the mainline. BUT..... for all of the less fortunate ( to that of KING Carl ) that UNfortunately have pursued this career now, when times are different (then when KING Carl joined in) and YES, the mainlines do like to see 121 time on the resume during a market that yields 1 position for every 1,000 that apply... maybe, just maybe, a regional position is one of the few "available" positions we can take to stay CURRENT, remain ATTRACTIVE and continue to build our EXPERIENCE!

I need another Beer... Carl you tire me!

I know how tough it must be for you to hear the truth. You're not used to it. You're only used to the echo chamber of how much major pilots have ruined your life and your career. And how major pilots have forced you to stay at the regionals under horrible pay because there's no other way to become qualified for a major.

It's good to get out of the echo chamber from time to time. I'm here for you Rance.

Carl

My case was that part 91 and 135 pilots rarely get hired. Realistically for civilians, THE way to get to the majors is via a regional.

Yes, I do see the irony: only by replacing a mainline pilot, can I earn the experience the mainline hiring teams want.

So before the Regionals where so Big and before they had jets, where did the Majors get their pilots? (besides the Military)

Ten

Just curious.

Does Chautauqua do any flying for Frontier?
FAA certificate says DBA Frontier.

Federal Aviation Administration - Airline Certificate Information - Detail View

Federal Aviation Administration - Airline Certificate Information

I think I am starting to understand you Carl. You actually made me laugh tonight.... thanks. By the way, I am military, still am, on the side.... and the opportunities that you and your gallery preach about from different days really are few and far. I have the time and experience to go mainline... but the phone aint a-ring'n and as much as I joked about walmart.... the wife didn't dig it. Still have the manager's number and can hook ya up on a two-for-one on socks or a belt? :D

Heck... a few more posts and I might actually be able to PM somebody.... see Carl, you pulled me out from the shadows. Make it three-for-one!

Try quitting the regional job and getting a corporate gig on the side. That'll do it. Otherwise you (NOT Carl!) Are responsible for the demise of the profession.

So Carl, as another poster asked, why aren't all Delta pilots turning down the 747 in order to get that payrate back to where it should be?

Regionals? (They were smaller, not non-existant.)

I don't really know. Why don't you old-timers tell us?

The more relevant question is "where do the majors get their pilots today?" Answer... REGIONALS!

Confucious say: Egg no come before chicken. Chicken vote for egg then hate it.

What I meant was that the elite or maybe I should say the more senior are easily swayed in negotiations to look out for themselves. Management knows they can offer a small pay raise to some of the more senior and get scope concessions in return. They also know that some elitist pilots will typically pit themselves against other pilot groups because after all they are better. They also know that some elitist pilots will typically take the money and run and not share it with the more junior ones in the ranks. This makes the negotiations much easier from the management perspective and the bean counters rely on it.

This is just my 2 cents and understand it may be flawed in some situations but it is my take after seeing how many things have played at the last 20 years. It's not just regional pilots working for too little money. It's also many FOs at the major airline level especially Airways. Pilots are their own worst enemy and management relies on this.

And thanks Whidby for the polite post. I agree with everything you posted. I'm just tired of folks thinking regional pilots should feel accountable or guilty for taking an entry level airline job. It is not those pilot's fault for the equipment we fly. These jets showed up on everyone's property and higher pay came with them.

I admit I am a bit late to the party. I only got my Commercial in 1996.... the same year Comair got CRJs. So, I don't know where the mainlines got their pilots when Convairs, 1900s, and Fokkers were the mainstay of "commuter" airlines. :rolleyes: Of course in those days, those planes flew under part 135. (I assume you know the difference between 121 and 135 back then. However, if you don't, it is why commuter planes are typically 19 pax or 29 pax. INTRAstate under 30 pax and INTERstate under 20 pax could be 135. That is the reason a 1900, J31/32, and Bnaderante are 19 pax; and a J41 and Brazillia are 29 pax)

But it doesn't really matter. TODAY, mainlines look for 121 time. And the easiest way for me (and many others) to get it is through a "regional".


So, YOU TELL ME, what do I need to get on my resume to get an interview? (notice I just said an interview, I am not begging for a job, just a chance)

If this doesn't convince people of the obvious scope violation I don't know what will.

it's clear as pilots we need to snuff out the regional 121 market. There's only 2 ways to do that.

1.) Mainline takes back scope
2.) Regional pilots need to fight management to the death on every last aspect of pay, QOL, working rules, staffing levels, ect so our contracts get more in line with mainline operators effectively pricing ourselves out.

But as long as one group isn't willing to strike tomorrow over exactly that we're stuck with option 1. Take it back guys, those of us younger guys who still see a future in this are counting on you here.

Its simple economics that regional management simply will not cave to pilot demands for radical increases in compensation & work rules, as doing so would make them uncompetitive financially uncompetitive. Management has a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, and while public companies often accept lower margins than private companies, they're not going to allow labor prices to put any sizable crimp on their profitability as it would have a major impact on their stock price.

Its also highly unlikely that, in a down economy and even with a "labor friendly" NMB that a regional airline pilot group would get released for self-help after demanding radical increases in compensation & work rules that are greatly above the current industry average.

Pattern bargaining is the best option to "raise" the going rate of regional pilot labor across the board, but getting there isn't going to be easy and it sure as hell isn't going to be quick.

The problem with #2 is whenever a regional group becomes too expensive due to better pay or longevity raises, it is abandoned and a new start up with zero longevity takes the contract.

I really don't think you pilots at the regional level have any power to affect this, contrary to what Carl the Imperious has to say. It really has to happen in the mainline corporate board room and in the government. The 1500 hour rule is a good start. Attaching liability to mainline carriers might bring it to the tipping point. More brand awareness at the corporate level will be the final straw.

Nope.

Note Chautauqua does not operate any aircraft that violate DAL scope.

No, it won't. Just like the many other pitfalls in the industry do not. They will line up to pay to fly. The industry will get the rule watered down, one way or another (Multi-pilot, reduction in hours for qualifying school grads, etc). The best case scenario for the airline is a constant turnover at the bottom of the pay scale to keep overall costs low.

And the planes WILL get bigger, because quite simply, they are more economical to operate. The consumers do not care whether the maintenance is done in El Salvador, the crews are paid nothing (or paying to fly), etc.

My former airline hasn't paid salaries for two months, yet people keep flying, and new hires keep showing up to replace those who leave.

Wow! This is gettin better by the minute. :D

Carl

Wow...you thought that was a serious question? OK. Just for you, here is the answer. If that happened, our contract would consider the 747 to have insufficient bidders, and all those positions would be forced on the bottom of the seniority list. That would really reduce the cost of 747 flying for the company. That's why Delta pilots haven't done that. It would do nothing to raise pay, only reduce the company's costs.

What we've done instead of your plan, is fight for higher pay in all categories (including the 747) during negotiations. This is a strange and foreign concept for you I know. The fun part is being told by people like you afterward, that our fighting for higher pay is ruining the industry and taking pay away from those pilots at the bottom of the industry.

Carl

Already answered in a previous post. The non-military guys in my class came from corporate, non-sched freight, North slope Alaska flying, and 2 from the commuters.

You are simply wrong. FDX, SWA and Delta are still getting the majority of their pilots from the military. Of the civilian pilots, some get their experience from the regionals, some do not.

I know it's key to your "argument" that you can only get qualified in today's world by flying for a regional, but when you make things up you just look silly...er.

Carl

I don't know there General Spackler, I think it is pretty easy for you to tell these young guys to get up and out of the trench and run into the German machine gun fire while you are sitting in Narita eating Soba noodles with little fear of being shot yourself.... Just sayin'

This is a typical RJ slur that has become very offensive. Even though it's based on historical ignorance, it's still offensive. Senior pilots (me included) have voted for lower line values so that people wouldn't get furloughed. That made my paycheck smaller. Senior pilots voted to give money to furoughed pilots so that their COBRA health insurance payments were made for them. That made my paycheck smaller.

That wouldn't work if only senior pilots benefitted, because senior pilots aren't a majority. To win a majority, you have to win over all groups. The way management won over our junior pilots, is to tell them that scope give aways will actually grow the majors and they'll move up faster. And then to seal the deal, management gave us those "iron-clad" no-furlough clauses so that the junior guys never had to worry.

Now you just sound foolish and petty.

As stated earlier, this is impossible because "elitist" pilots aren't a majority, and as such, this could never be voted in.

It would if anything you said was actually true. It is of course, not true.

It is seriously flawed dude. Worse, it's insulting to people like me who voted time and time again to do things that made my pay worse, in order to keep people employed, and their health insurance covered if we couldn't. Those are historical facts, and nearly every airline did it. Wise up!

Carl

Oh I think most people are clearly convinced. But sadly, there can be no convincing of ALPA because ALPA has taken a broader view. ALPA is willing to take a short term loss by not enforcing scope at Delta, in order to win over the RAH pilots someday.

That's life as a member of ALPA.

Carl

Spoken by someone who has no clue as to what is actually in DAL's scope language.

Carl

Do you still fully support ALPA or are you in on the in house push?

This old general and many others just like me are quite familiar with running into "machine gun fire." Every one of our strikes were painful memories - not so much for me, but how they scared my family to death. If you ever have to do that someday, you'll know. Until then, your petulant comments are ill received.

Fighting for one's own pay and work rules is a fight that can only happen amongst that particular pilot group. They either have the will, or they do not.

Carl

Which is what created the regionals of today. Short term self preservation. It's a catch 22. We all want to hate it but can't as it's now part of our system.

Now lets go back and forth on how age 65 ruined things for those of us trying to work our way up!

As far as I can tell scope concessions have furloughed major pilots by the thousands. Also Carl I think you may be painting with too broad of a brush to say every airline pretty much voted the same way you have. Its honorable that you have done these things but I don't think it applies to the entire industry over the last 20+ yrs.

Oursourcing and its damages to all facets of aviation is the issue and the concept that pilots are their own worst enemy and how managements play on that is my point.

You're new here...aren't you. :D

Carl