Whats the Deal AA with the limited jump seats
 

I don't understand why your union restricts jump seats to only one person for MES, 9E, 9L pilots. We take tons of your guys to and from work all the time and we never limit you guys. That is until today! Word is that we will not take any AA jump seaters if we already have a jump seater regardless of how may open seats in the back. Eagle pilots don't worry you are not included in these new rules.

How many forums do you plan of *****ing on?

Not sure of the veracity of your information, but when it comes to jumpseat wars, there are no winners. Tit-for-tat on this issue will only result in just as many of your pilots left holding their ****'s at the gate as AA pilots.

Perhaps someone will have more facts, before throwing a grenade on this.

This is **official** word from your union or airlines?
I'm not even an airline guy and I know how bad jump-seat tit-for-tat is, and as said above - no one wins and people just trying to get to/from work are left holding the bags.

Before this gets into rumor mill mud-slinging, can you supply some sort of factual data to support this contention - AA's and/or your airline's position stated above?

USMCFLYR

Stop right there, no need to read more. You actually think it's OUR UNION that restricts us from carrying more?

OUR UNION would love to carry as many as there are open seats - but OUR UNION does not own the jumpseat, AMR does. We (APA) are blue in the face from asking our company to relent on this issue. Our CAs do EVERYTHING they can to get as many on board. Given that we are in the midst of heated negotiations for the most important contract of our career, two things ain't happening: 1) the company will attempt to extract AS MUCH as they can in return from unlimited jumpseaters, and b) APA's mission right now is to secure the most important things out of negotiations - PAY, SCOPE and WORK RULES. Unlimited jumpseats is probably pretty far down the list right now, but nevertheless very important for us. We WILL get to it, hands down. We just need to get the rest of the stuff in order.

Please be patient as we are trying to raise the bar for everyone today in the form of an industry leading contract. In the meantime we are very appreciative of the rides on your airlines, and we do EVERYTHING we can within our (AMR-limited) power to accommodate as many of you as we can.

Thanks for your understanding - PLEASE don't turn this into a jumpseat war. Everyone loses then.
73

Thanks AA73 for being so understanding of our misguided Mesaba brother here... No such official communication has been put out by the MECs at any of the 3 PNCL Corp airlines. We continue to take AA pilots on an unlimited basis.

All AA are welcome in my cockpit.

Being but a lowly FO it isn't my call when they show up but I see no reason anybody I've flown with would deny a js'er from any company as long as they were approved and following the rules, nor would I when I reach the left seat. Helping our own get to and from work is something we need to protect, not leverage against one another.

Best of luck to the AA pilots in your negotiations.

Our XJ union did in fact state today that we will have the same agreement that AA has with us, something like only one offline jumpseater. To be honest, I am baffled as to why we would do this. The union stated clearly that AA pilots have been fighting management about this rule, so I dont know why we need to feel like its our job to squeeze AA management by denying AA guys a ride to work :confused:
I'm not a captain, but I would strongly suggest to mine that we take any and all jumpseaters. Nobody wins when we punish people for something that they didn't do.

My apologies to the AA guys...

more explanation
 

The priority must be the issue, I guess.

For now, the golden rule is usually still in effect at most carriers - treat the APA pilots the way that you would want to be treated - unlimited access on all fights. Hopefully AA/APA will reciprocate in the future.

I don't like the method, but I think I see the logic. Since APA can't sway AMR, then the only way to end the policy is to make AMR get hurt. If enough of AA pilots get bumped and are forced to use the commuter clause, AMR would (hopefully) realize it is cheaper to let a bunch of regional guys ride, than to use more reserves or cancel flights.

The question is, can Mesaba (or PinneCoSaba if the other MECs join in) have a significant affect on AMR?

I agree 73, starting to deny AA guys the jumpseat is ridiculous and the wrong way to fix this. I wish you guys the best of luck with your negotiations, you guys deserve a lot in return for the crap you've dealt with.

That being said, this is an issue that effects OAL guys and doesn't effect you guys as you can just list as non-revs to get the ride. I've been on the losing end of this deal a few times with many seats open in the back and it SUCKS. Your crews have always been very professional and sympathetic and I know their hands are tied. This has been going on for a few years now and I think some jumpseat committees are getting frustrated with the lack of reciprocity. Especially because this rule is only applicable to some carriers and not others.

I don't agree with it, but I'm also not surprised, that committees are starting to restrict AA guys. You said this was far down your guys list of priorities which is understandable, any suggestions as to another avenue OAL guys could take to help fix this?

I will not play the double standard game in my jumpseat. What's good for my fellow XJ pilots is the standard that I will follow for any AA pilot. It's obvious that AMR management doesn't have much regard for us so I don't think this will hurt anybodys chances on future hiring they already are showing they don't like us.

BE24, couple of points.
First, AA pilots have gone well out of their way to help get me on an airplane numerous times over the last 20 years. I assure you that AA pilots are your friend.

Second, life isn't fair; as long as AA is bigger and has a larger route structure than your carrier, their management will assume they are superior to your airline and that you need them more than they need you. It is what it is.

Third, the Golden Rule applies.

Finally, commuting requires an exceptionally thick skin. Just smile and move on.

Restricting AA pilots to one jumpseater just because of their company policy is playing right into AMR Management's hand.

It's not just 'a bunch of regional guys'. Some regional guys have unlimited domestic on AA (a large national presence and an extensive ORD operation - for UAL Express - is usually is the key, as AA has DFW locked up), but most large carriers (Air Tran, Jet Blue, etc) are limited domestic only, just like the 'regional guys'. AA has played a game where they do 'just enough' to placate the few airlines their pilots need for commuting, giving unlimited on all flights to the legacy carriers (and a couple randoms - Aloha had unlimited on all flights), unlimited domestic to a few regionals they needed, and giving the cold shoulder to everyone else.

There may come a time when AA's 'holier than thou' attitude and APA's lack of negotiating capital devoted to this issue will have repercussions. SWAPA and SWA strong-armed AA on this issue, and it worked (they're also the largest domestic airline in the US). The golden rule is meant to set an example, with the expectation that your example might one day be followed. How long do you set the example and let others benefit from your charity? The 'originator' of the golden rule (religion) has been engaged in charity for centuries.

APA took concessions after 9/11 and didn't get unlimited jumpseats for all off-line pilots (this is where most other legacy airlines got it, but they took larger concessions than APA pilots did too). Well, now APA is working on a new contract. If the new contract doesn't make any gains for off-line jumpseaters, then perhaps its time to re-evaluate. It won't be easy, though. To get real movement on this issue, you really need to get the support of the pilot groups that already have unlimited domestic and unlimited on all flights. That's asking primarily ALPA mainline pilots to give something up for primarily ALPA regional pilots (and non-ALPA pilots, should union affiliation be an issue?) and pretty much declaring a jumpseat war on APA pilots for a stance that APA doesn't support, but just doesn't fight hard enough for. Should off-line pilots be the judge of APA's own negotiating priorities? What if Delta and United pilots decide to limit jumpseat access to AA pilots to one seat per aircraft, and DL and UA management asks them to apply this policy to all airlines, not just AA - ie, this could back-fire. A very delicate situation indeed.

APA should be given every opportunity to solve this themselves.

Ya'll have been fighting this fight for how long? 10 years? I got in this business in 98 and it was an issue then. Don't leave guys at the gate start giving them buddy passes if you don't want us to leave AA guys. Doing all ya can? Have you given out 1 pass? Have rode on a pass so another guy could JS? Prob yes for the second but I doubt yes to the first.

Can't just "issue" a buddy pass - lots of TSA-regulated info needed from the other person. Plus, we are only limited to a certain amount of buddy pass riders, and for most of us that list is taken up by family/friends.

aa73 is correct in this. "Buddy" passes are restricted to 24 per year, and the "buddy" has to be listed on the employee's pass travel list. They can not just be GIVEN away randomly. Not only that, but once a person is actually placed on an emplyee's list, that person can't be removed for 12 months. No one will do that for some random unknown jumpseater.

I hope this gets worked out, btw.

[QUOTE=BE24pilot;988772]I don't understand why your union restricts jump seats to only one person for MES, 9E, 9L pilots.... TE]





Anyone know if Delta mainline pilots are restricted as well?

AMR "buddy passes" changed afer 9-11. We don't carry the old blank forms that we could give to anybody at anytme... we now have a fixed number of people we can list in the company computer system as "guest travelers" and they can only be changed yearly... If we add somebody onto the list, they are on there for a full year. From comparing travel benefits with other carriers, ours now sux.

Honestly, the latest attacks on our jumpseat ability started with jetblue. I got a peek at al old ALPA jumpseat guide from several years ago, and the only legacy/major/national that required pilots to list before travel was jetBlue. Yes, you "could" list with several others, but only JB required it. Now several are copying suit and requiring pilots to list instead of listing at the gate... including AA. It's a bad trend, and we all need to work together to retake control of our jumpseats. Being a jackazz and not letting somebody on doesn't help anybody.

.02

The problem is you have been doing it for years and not a single thing has changed.

The most desirable way to deal with conflict is through diplomacy. When that does not produce results, which is the case with American, the next step is to use force. I understand completely that the American pilot group would like to get rid of the "restricted" jumpseat policy. They have had 10 years to figure this out, which shows a total lack of desire from the American pilot group(as a whole). If Mesaba has truly enacted a new jumpseat policy that recipocates the horse **it that American has been pulling for years, this will become a huge win for the "restricted" guys. This act would finally create a presedent within the industry that has been neglected for some time. The only way to create change at this point is by force and shear numbers. As a small carrier individually, we really can't force a change at American but if we all are on the same page, results will occur. I truely applaud Mesaba for this initiative. If anyone from Mesaba has this policy, please send me a copy and I will forward it to our jumpseat coordinators ASAP.

To the American sympathisers; I understand completely that leaving a jumpseater behind goes against the basic fabric of our moral compass. I absolutely hate even thinking about it, but consider this: When you allow more then one American jumpseater on your aircraft, you are shafting your own pilot group. I assure you American is leaving one of your own behind in DFW or ORD within the very near future.

AA pilots, any pilot is a friend. That's not the issue. I think the issue is that people take this too personally. It's a business agreement that lacks reciprocity. I will not enjoy denying a AA pilot the jumpseat should the situation arise, but I will follow the guidelines set forth by the union. My union is/has been working for my benefit. I have spent the night in O'Hare after having been denied the jumpseat by AA. I did not take it personal, that's their policy. The previous agreement of unlimited jumpseats for AA
did not give fruition of equal benefits. It's time for equality. Besides the golden rule goes both ways, this is meant to management not the pilot group of AA. Please don't confuse where this is being directed to.

That's a load of CRAP and you know it. You think it's entirely up to us to "figure it out" and magically make changes to the policy - in the midst of Section 6 negotiations that have been going on FOR OVER THREE YEARS with no progress. Gee, if you have the magic ability to make AMR management listen to YOUR suggestions, be my guest - heck, write a book! because you'll have discovered something nobody else has.

Look, I understand why you guys are ticked off, and rightfully so. If I could change it yesterday, I would. Please be patient.

P.s. Thanks xjsaab, you get it. We will get this worked out in our next contract.

I will stand corrected I was unaware that it was not the AA MEC that had the jump seat rule in place but rather AA management. With that being said it is still the point that it is not reciprocal when we are restricted to one rider regardless of load. With regionals doing more than 40% of the nations domestic flying your pilots depend on us as much as our pilots depend on them to get home. I am sure there are AA pilots that live in areas that are serviced solely by XJ, 9E, 9L. AA management should recognize this as Delta, South West, United, US Air, and numerous other power house majors have.

[QUOTE=whaledriver1;989177]Of course not. They reap the benefits of AA guys riding unlimited on the tens of thousands of DCI flights every day.

Besides, they're work for a "real" airline. Note the sarcasm. I work for a limited carrier.

be24
AA does not have a MEC. The APA represents the AA pilots. I know it is semantics, but now APA, ALPA, AMR and your company all need to work together to get the Limited changed. I am certain the APA and ALPA desire the change to unlimited for you.
The bean counters at AMR will be the hard sell. I will contact our APA jumpseat rep to vocie concern over the limitied status for you.

Mark Hetterman who used to be the Chief Pilot at AA was in control of the jumpseat. He was a piece of Shart to say the least. Completely useless and used the jumpseat as a bargaining tool. I here the new Chief pilot is more in tune with the pilot group and we shall see what happens.
I agree with your sentiments that having a three tier jumpseat system is BS! Why should AA be any different from any of the other legacy carriers?
AA's new jumpseat chairman is ten times better and more proactive then there old jumpseat chairman and he really is trying to get these policies changed. The main question is, HOW much longer is it going to take?

As the Captain of the aircraft.. The jumpseat is MINE to grant or deny. PERIOD!
Seat or no seat

I am totally sympathetic to APA's priorities with their contract right now. But on the other hand this one-JSer rule has been around for a looong time. If it's still in place several years down the road I will start to wonder too.

Buddy pass? Why? A ZED fare is 10% cheaper and doesn't lock that person on the buddy list for a year or require all the personal information, which you couldn't do on short notice in the first place.

Are you suggesting the AA pilot buy the ZED?:confused:

Not all pilots have access to ZED fares on AA. ZED also has 3 levels of 'fees', low, medium, and high (correct me if I'm mistaken, please). So, even those pilots who have ZED access on AA are not all paying the same fees.

Naturally, the guys most likely to have 'low ZED' on AA already have unlimited, or at least domestic unlimited . . . just the way things shake out.

A ZED (at any price) may be a better option than watching an AA plane push without you, though.:cool:

That's right. I've known many commuters over the years who always carry a ZED ticket, just in case.

Is the AA Jump seat now available international. Example DFW-CUN.

I believe TSA now allows it?

AA guys do you know the answer?

porpilot,
The AA jumpseat is open to international to some airlines, but not all. Who do you work for?
FlyitB
I wish AMR felt the same way you do about the jumpseat! It is not worth getting fired, or worse, by allowing an unauthorized person to use the jumpseat travel priviledge.
Remember AA was among the last to open the jumpseat to their own pilots as well as other airlines. Change is very difficult for the AA culture, but progress is slowly being made.

No, my response was to the post that asked how many AA pilots had given a jumpseater a 'buddy pass'. I don't know how other non-rev systems work but it's pointless to ask an AA pilot to 'give' someone a buddy pass since it doesn't exist at AA.

The non-rev option that they could offer is more expensive than a ZED fare and not available on short notice, so the 'how many guys have you offered a buddy pass' POV is pointless.

How does AA (the management) decide what other airlines they will restrict and what airlines they won't? The way I understood it was if your airline let as many as they could take on then AA would to, or if your airline limited it the AA would to? If that's not the case then is there a list somewhere of who is limited and who isn't?