You should be treated as an equal.

So.... let's furlough you so what you consider to be your job can be insourced back to mainline. :eek:

When your company sells their own tickets and flies their own paint then you can be treated as an equal.

Then management goes to court, sticks it on ALPA. Investigation shows that it isn't ALPA's doing. Management then panics with no idea how to prevent a recurrence. Only advice from their own attorneys is to sign a contract since they can't figure out how to sue.

PIPE

Unlevel playing field
 

Unfortunately, the court may say: "OK ALPA, it wasn't your doing, but you are ordered to make it stop anyway, or you will be fined out of existence."
Such things have happened. :(

Exact reason this would NEVER work. You'll NEVER get all pilots to join hands to talk and act in one voice, because of pilots like this one right here.

Missing the point
 

I may be wrong, but knowing a thing or 2 about corporate America & pressure tactics, What I read from this is .......

"The Orange stickers on the flight bags will be seen by the Chief Pilot who talks to management & other chief pilots"

The point is not to Halt the system, the threat that it could bring the system to a Halt, even for 2 hours, without the pilots taking to the picket lines, is what would scare the Topp Brass in Management & that scare would cause them to ask them to call the union leaders & pilots to the table, is what they would like to achieve. OR executing this 2 hour stall in the system one time & the threat of having it again on a regular basis would get the managements to the table......

The voice will be heard across the country.....

But I could be wrong..... I am still at a point where I am not even considered a newbee YET...

I know that!!! Don't judge the rash by the dipper.... But with diarrhea like him the irritation is just out of control!!!

Where do you get off making statements like this?? You don't know me or what I will do.

I just think someone who is flying regional aircraft with my airlines paint while I'm out furloughed and then they demand equality of treatment is pretty hypocritical.

Do you care to explain why, because I think that any aircraft with an airlines paint should be flown by that airlines pilots, this is counter to the solidarity being proposed?

I'm with you dosbo. I'd wager that over half of the cockpit seats at regionals are direct replacements for mainline seats and half are what the regional business would have naturally been if grown sensibly.

PIPE

So I'm curious, if you were given the option of being furloughed, or stepping down to the smaller aircraft, flying the smaller legs, would you have done that? or would that have been beneath you, even though the aircraft is painted in 'your' company's colors?

And, another question, wasn't it 'your' company that outsourced those smaller legs? why is it the regional pilot's fault for 'taking' your job, sounds to me like 'your' company gave those jobs away, so you should be angry with 'your' company and realize that your fellow pilot is just trying to make a living, or am I incorrect on that?

No I would have no problem flying smaller aircraft down to BE-1900 as long as they are on the mainline certificate and seniority list, and paid a liviable wage that one can support a family on. I have been offered several opportunities at regionals at second year pay, through the J for J program, and declined because I refuse to outsource myself for substandard wages. Therefore I guess I prefer to be furloughed as opposed to selling myself out.

Yes it was the management that demanded and ALPA leadership that allowed the rampant outsourcing of the flying. I did not get to vote on the matter and I am appropriately angry with the company and ALPA.

As far a my fellow pilot trying to make a living, well that's what I was doing too when my job was outsourced to the lowest bidder. I am all for pilots making a good living at improved mainline wages at mainline. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't you rather have more flying at mainline and the opportunity to fly and have a career at the mainline? Or are you a career regional pilot?

I'm curious, where you started your airline career at?

Ten years r/w in the Army

Did add on ratings

One year Lakes, I know wh0ring myself out for time but only flying BE1900's. Had no visions of grandure when I went there.

Seven years AirWilly, hired there when they had 328's, ten CRJ200's and the BAE 146's. Relatively small high quality company with a good contract flying most of their aircraft where mainline didn't go. Untill the debacle after 9/11 began the major outsourcing.

UAL, hired in 08, furloughed

Currently guard bumming r/w again. Somehow I've come full circle.

So where did you start yours at?

So, other than the Army, you pretty much did what every other regional pilot out there is doing. But since you've made it the majors, it's wrong for everyone else to follow your footsteps. Just as I suspected.

I'm sorry everyone, I did NOT intend for this to turn into a regional vs major crapshoot again. My apologies, please continue on with the original thread topic.

When I went to a regional they weren't nearly the size they are now and all the mainline carriers were hiring right along with the regionals so the jobs weren't being outsourced at that time. Also the contract we had in 01 at AirWilly was better than the current contract. The 146's paid well and were used primarily for ASE, not hub to hub.

Currently regionals are flying 70 and 90 seaters at lower rates. Heck most of the 70 seat rates are less than the 50 seat rates at AirWilly when soft money if factored in.

This is not a regional vs major crapshoot, as you put it. It's about getting the flying back to mainline so pilots can't be whipsawed against each other.

Even when flying at the regionals I would have gladly had my job eliminated if it meant that flying went to mainline. Instead all of the UAL flying AirWilly was doing was taken away through bankruptcy manuevering by mainline management and given to the lowest bidder. At that point in time all the AirWilly pilots were not willing to further reduce their rates and it cost them that UAL flying. They will probably be out of business in 2015 at the end of their UsAir contract since they are still way to expensive when compared to their peers.

You can believe what you want. Untill significant regional flying is returned to mainline this career will still flounder. And don't count on the looming pilot shortage to move you up, theres been a pilot shortage just about forever.

Isn't this what operation orange is about? Eliminate the whipsawing and outsourcing to the lowest bidder while restoring the profession to suitable wages and work rules?

Do you want to make your career at a regional or do you want to have a mainline career?

You didn't mention where you started your career at.

While you are correct, that is what operation Orange is about. But its not about being a jerk to a regional guy just because he's there. I would gladly give up my regional job if that meant mainline was taking back scope. It would mean I would be way better off in the long run with the possibility of going to a major much sooner.

The guy called you out for being a JERK to him even though your career progression is extremely similar to all of ours. You shouldn't be ***tting on regional guys just for being there. 95% of the guys I fly with want scope taken back.

We should be concentrating on unifying instead of attacking each other. I hope you get recalled in the near future and can continue getting back to your career expectations.
all the best T

Jerk is kind of tame, my wife generally thinks I'm an ********* but she still loves me anyways.:D

Have a nice day

It's not that it's your fault for taking his job, it's that it's such a foolish decision. You're building time to get to a major, but the majors are hardly hiring. Why? Major's flying is being outsourced to you. Do you see the conundrum?

It may have worked out for some guys in the past, but it's very tough odds that you'll be one chosen to go to a major. It's just a question of math. The only question now is: How long will you continue to provide the reason (horribly cheap labor) that management wants to outsource in the first place? Only you can answer that question.

Carl

I understand what you're saying, and I don't want to beat a dead horse or hijack this thread, but do you really think current CFIs with no airline experience are going to be the ones who fix the problems (by not taking outsourced jobs at substandard wages) that airline pilots are facing ? When viewed from the perspective of a young, pragmatic (if short-sighted) CFI, the conundrum is not so clear. To my knowledge, no legacy carriers hire pilots with only CFI experience. I'm sure a lot of young pilots would rather instruct their way to a mainline job, but that just isn't a viable option. I think everyone can agree that the profession is a mess -- while I understand that it's important to recognize how it happend, I don't think arguing over whose fault it is is going to get it cleaned up any time soon.

Very well put. Now let's get this thread back on topic, shall we? How long has this site been up? What phase are we currently in? Besides logging on to the website regularly how will we know what the date will be?

So a CFI is the only choice to gain flight experience? Come now. Since I've already listed them, this should be easy...name some different ways for a young pilot to gain experience.

I understand that management's propensity to outsource flying has largely invalidated the traditional view of regional airlines as a stepping stone to the majors. Changing that misconception would prove beneficial for the industry as a whole, as it would remove the primary motivation to endure the low wages and QOL that regionals offer. However, I believe the situation is similar to the "tragedy of the commons," in that while the very existence of regional airlines decreases demand for pilots at the majors, when majors do hire, they tend to hire a lot of regional pilots. I'd be interested to see how many regional pilots DAL hired in 2010, and how many of their new hires came from corporate or Part 135 backgrounds. I'm sure they hired a lot of military guys; however, military flying spots are exponentially harder to come by than regional jobs. If scope-hawks took over hiring at all the majors and absolutely refused to hire anyone that had ever flown an RJ, I'm guessing young, aspiring airline pilots would think twice about taking a job at a regional. I would be among the sacrificial lambs in such a scenario, which I don't believe would be feasible or ethical, but I'm not really sure what would discourage eager, young pilots from taking a job flying RJs.

Thanks. The archives on the site go back to October 2010, but other than that I personally don't have a clue . A post on their Facebook page says "Phase II is advertising to pilots. We are in Phase II right now." For updates, you can add your email to their mailing list or subscribe to their RSS feed -- links for both are on their website.

Hello
 

Hey everyone, I created an account just to respond to this thread. I think this Operation Orange is a bad idea. As a matter of fact, it's probably the worst idea I've ever heard of. I agree with the goal, however I do not agree with the strategy. How do you think the general public will view this when their annual family vacation gets screwed up because a bunch of largely unionized (union = bad in 2011) Airline Pilots (airline pilots = rich) decided not to fly? Its not going to end up the way you want it to, that's for sure. It could.....but I would say the chances of success are about 10% at best. If a crazy group could pull this off be prepared for mega-cabotage. Not this United/Aer Lingus testing the waters, *****footing, trying to gain leverage on their union stuff. No. With the support of the general public, most Republicans, some Democrats, all CEO's, and Fox news this will happen overnight. Think things can't get worse? Please. Non-stop DTW-MIA, ORD-LGA, ATL-MCO.....on Mexicana. I like the unity and I like a good plan as much as any other pilot, but find one that the public will support. I'm just trying to figure out if the CEO's are all in cahoots and thought this up cuz they would be the biggest winners. Are they this smart?

Some are, some aren't.

However, you are. Good post.

Back on track -

I would focus on the underpants. Seems more realistic.