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-   -   DAL to replace 100 757's with 739's (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/61571-dal-replace-100-757s-739s.html)

johnso29 08-23-2011 04:38 PM

Well, regardless of the downsides of the 737-900ER, any brand new airplanes coming that could represent potential Mainline growth make me smile. :D

Scoop 08-23-2011 04:41 PM

Guys,

Look, the 737-900 is not cutting edge technology, and not the best choice for a winter, westbound Transcon - granted. But, and its a big but, it will be a solid performer on tons of routes: MSP - anywhere in CONUS, DTW - anywhere in CONUS, ATL- anywhere in CONUS, MEM - anywhere in CONUS, SLC - mostly anywhere in CONUS.

And remember - we will still have the newer 757's for the JFK-SEA stuff against 120 KT HW's in the winter sticking around for years.

Finally, there will probably more orders, so who is to say we will not get a better performing aircraft on the next order.

DAL 737-900 order: perfect -no, good news - definitely!

Scoop :)

RamenNoodles 08-23-2011 04:49 PM

I thought I read on DeltaNet this order is just speculation by media, and not an actual announcement. Does anyone know what the story is?

flyallnite 08-23-2011 04:52 PM

So with about 40% of the entire 75/767 fleet being replaced by the -900, what does everyone think that will do to the current ER categories? I'm assuming ATL domestic 75/76 will close. NYC 7ER will shrink. But bases like SLC, MSP, LAX, where most of the flying is on the 757, could they lose their ER bases all together? Discuss.

forgot to bid 08-23-2011 05:02 PM


Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1043015)
Huh? I thought Cactus seats were a product of the West division of the airline run by the un cool drunk.

(SWA being the airline founded by the cool alcoholic)

I didn't know they were drunks? Ha, learn something new. Oh wait, I do remember the UsAir/America West guy getting a DUI after the DAL deal fell through.

There is one way to look at the 739. Oil wrestling. They can put tubs of oil on the jetway and we can just all lather up to help make squeezing into the seat that much easier.

I went looking for a picture. I found lots of great pictures to illustrate this point. Problem is, I can't post those pictures. Besides, we all know from experience we're far more likely to sit next to a guy name Frank than a girl named Britney.

http://kirkpinar.jpn.org/Main/images/ed014.jpg

forgot to bid 08-23-2011 05:03 PM

Also, if you put your coat in the overhead bin, it gets taken out and burned.

Speaking of that, wait for the FA to say "Our overhead bins are full, we need to start checking bags."

Well, imagine if everyone in green is good, no bags to check. All the seats in blue are already occupied by people who put their bags in overhead bins. All the people in red have bags and no where to put them.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...d/temp4-60.jpg

So all of their bags have to come back out, be checked to the next hub (let's be honest, they're lucky if they're checked to the final destination and don't end up twirling around baggage claim), and then they continue back to their seats. All in 47 minutes which included unloading out of 1L door and waiting for wheelchairs.

Yes, boarding is going to be a blast. Much like, sigh, the 88 and 90, just more people. What we need to do is open one of those aft doors and just start throwing bags down to the ramp.

TenYearsGone 08-23-2011 05:06 PM

Sorry for being so DUMB:(

Are you sure Delta is getting the 737-900er? I haven't read any official announcement on Deltanet, on the other hand the info I am getting is just speculation.

If the -900er rumor is true, then I bet we are eyeing another airline (which has future additional 737 orders, hint hint:D) to acquire. Just sayin.

TEN

forgot to bid 08-23-2011 05:07 PM


Originally Posted by RamenNoodles (Post 1043026)
I thought I read on DeltaNet this order is just speculation by media, and not an actual announcement. Does anyone know what the story is?

It is. But we enjoy rumors to the nth degree. :D

forgot to bid 08-23-2011 05:17 PM


Originally Posted by flyallnite (Post 1043027)
So with about 40% of the entire 75/767 fleet being replaced by the -900, what does everyone think that will do to the current ER categories? I'm assuming ATL domestic 75/76 will close. NYC 7ER will shrink. But bases like SLC, MSP, LAX, where most of the flying is on the 757, could they lose their ER bases all together? Discuss.

That's a good question. Combine all the ER and the ATL 767 categories and you have 257 jets and 3,760 pilots flying them. Take 100 757s away and move them to the lower paying 739 and that's a lot of pilots to cut. At 14.6 pilots per plane (give or take for ER considerations) you're looking to move 1,400+ pilots off the ER and the lone ATL domestic 767 category.

And that's if only 100 757s disappear. What if it's more but only 100 739 replacements?

Time will tell.

And that's IF this whole 739 is true.

contrails 08-23-2011 05:20 PM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1043038)
Also, if you put your coat in the overhead bin, it gets taken out and burned.

Speaking of that, wait for the FA to say "Our overhead bins are full, we need to start checking bags."

Well, imagine if everyone in green is good, no bags to check. All the seats in blue are already occupied by people who put their bags in overhead bins. All the people in red have bags and no where to put them.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...d/temp4-60.jpg

So all of their bags have to come back out, be checked to the next hub (let's be honest, they're lucky if they're checked to the final destination and don't end up twirling around baggage claim), and then they continue back to their seats. All in 47 minutes which included unloading out of 1L door and waiting for wheelchairs.

Yes, boarding is going to be a blast. Much like, sigh, the 88 and 90, just more people. What we need to do is open one of those aft doors and just start throwing bags down to the ramp.

What are the two in the lav up to?

forgot to bid 08-23-2011 05:50 PM


Originally Posted by contrails (Post 1043059)
What are the two in the lav up to?


Doug Masters 08-23-2011 06:13 PM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1043038)

Yes, boarding is going to be a blast. Much like, sigh, the 88 and 90, just more people. What we need to do is open one of those aft doors and just start throwing bags down to the ramp.

We do it backwards. We should charge for carry-ons and allow free checked bags. Boarding time would be cut in half.

Dash8widget 08-23-2011 06:15 PM

About the only good thing that I've heard from AS peeps about the 900 is that the FA's love it. Why? I guess there happens to be an excess of overhead space relative to the number of pax it can carry. Go figure.

80ktsClamp 08-23-2011 06:22 PM


Originally Posted by Doug Masters (Post 1043085)
We do it backwards. We should charge for carry-ons and allow free checked bags. Boarding time would be cut in half.

We could put "bags fly free here" pointed to the bins and "not here" pointing to the overheads.

Bucking Bar 08-23-2011 06:53 PM

Good article, credit to J.O. on the ALPA board:

Making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear: the 737-900ER Leeham News and Comment

Clear Right 08-23-2011 07:08 PM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1042569)
What direction did you think they would go? Have you ridden in a new 700 with the better seats and entertainment system? There were only three choices for delivery in 2013. A321, 900 or 900ER. If in fact they have picked the 900ER it clearly outperforms the other two options. The A321 is not a true transcon aircraft so limited on many routes for Delta.

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...1/performance/

A321 is wider, more overhead room, all around more comfy. Throw in the NEO and Winglets and that changes the whole equation. Here's a quote for you: "The Airbus A321 has similar cabin capacity as the Boeing 757, but has lacked trans-Atlantic range.* With the pending re-engining of the A320 family with the Pratt & Whitney (div. United Technologies) GTF and CFM International (joint venture, GE Aircraft Engines and SNECMA) Leap-X engines, better fuel efficiency is changing the performance equation for the aircraft. * The A321 may be the aircraft that benefits most from re-engining, as it fundamentally changes the potential mission profile from transcontinental to transatlantic in range."

HVYinRESERVE 08-23-2011 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by Dash8widget (Post 1043088)
About the only good thing that I've heard from AS peeps about the 900 is that the FA's love it. Why? I guess there happens to be an excess of overhead space relative to the number of pax it can carry. Go figure.

Interesting. I've heard they hate it, especially in the back because you get airsick sitting in the FA jumpseat.

As for me, I'll just be happy to quit flying airplanes that have lav leaks and smell like p*ss (some of our wonderful 757-200s).:eek:

forgot to bid 08-23-2011 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1043102)

Bar, this is too good not to re post in full for the link challenged.


Making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear: the 737-900ER

May 5, 2011 Leave a comment Go to comments
Here’s a story we did for Commercial Aviation Online.
Date: 04/05/2011 10:00 Source: Commercial Aviation Online Location: Seattle By: Scott Hamilton Sometimes aircraft take a long time to come into their own. The Boeing 757 was initially a slow-seller but ultimately sold slightly more than 1,000 aircraft. The Boeing 737-200 was such a slow-seller that Boeing nearly decided to sell the aircraft, lock, stock and production line to Japanese interests. Boeing stuck with the 737, to its benefit; the 737 has, to-date, sold more than 6,000 and Boeing is openly talking about keeping the production line open to “at least” 2026, an incredible 60 years after it began.

The 737-900 is another slow-seller. Launched in 1997 with an order from Alaska Airlines, there have been just 381 sales through March this year, 14 years later, or an average of 27 per year. In 2004 and 2009, there were no sales at all.
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/g...x?ItemID=39456
Source: Boeing

Until last year, it was the worst performing member of the 737 family (excluding the -600, which hasn’t sold since 2005). Last year, it tied the 737-700, which out-performed the -900 every year since 1997 except 2002. Through the first three months this year, the -700 sold only one aircraft while the -900 inked 33 orders.
Source: Boeing

What has changed in the last 12 months to give the aircraft a boost?
Customers, potential customers and others say it’s clear that sales were depressed for years because of a series of factors-and rebounded due to a change in Boeing sales strategy, changing market conditions and changes in the aircraft itself.
The biggest impediment was that the initial aircraft , the -900 “standard,” was not especially attractive. Just 52 were sold and none since 2003- a worse performance than the unpopular 737-600.

The -900 standard was a straight-forward stretch of the -800, but no additional emergency exists were installed, thus exit-limiting the aircraft to 189 despite the additional floor space. Range was shorter than the -800; it was about three-quarters US trans-continental nor could it do the US West Coast to Hawaii. These factors limited the aircraft’s appeal.

“That’s an airplane that should never have been built,” said one person close to the programme.

The 737-900ER has more emergency exits and better range. While take-off field performance isn’t quite as good as the 737-800, taking 200-300 feet more runway, Boeing feels this isn’t consequential. But sales of the -900ER were slow to get going, too.
Kostya Zolotusky, managing director of Capital Markets Development for Boeing Capital Corp., did not address the view of the -900 standard, but had this take: “Boeing does not, relative to Airbus, offer significant launch incentives to artificially stimulate or accelerate new airplane introduction. Historically, all of our airplanes took a while to build sales momentum. Comparing -900ER to other Boeing launches, it looks very similar.

“The -900ER came to market just prior to ’07-’09 financial crises and economic downturn. This environment was not conducive to persuading airlines to try something new and better (risk aversion was everywhere). Recent -900ER sales surge has coincided with the end of down-turn and airlines’ recognition that additional capacity, beyond the 737-800, at similar trip economics is very valuable,” Zolotusky says.
“I refer to -900ER as -800 on steroids. During the downturn, the airlines were cutting capacity and were not looking a supersizing their -800s. Now, strong demand and high oil prices make -900ER size and economics look very attractive.”

Sales were boosted from 2005-07 by Lion Air, which ordered a total of 166-accounting for 48% of the orders. Continental Airlines has 13% (45) of the orders and Alaska Airlines is next at 7%, meaning 68% of the orders come from just three customers.
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/g...x?ItemID=39458
Source: Boeing, Orders 1997-March 2011

(Continental upped its order for the -900ER on 26 April with another seven units.) This customer concentration gives pause to appraisers, who said at the ISTAT annual conference in Phoenix in March that the poor market reception of the -900 standard hurt sales of the more versatile -900ER.

In addition to the additional exits and range, Randy Tinseth, VP-marketing, wrote upon the launch of the -900ER programme, that, “Several improvements to the wings and flap systems and optional blended winglets and auxiliary fuel tanks allow the 737-900ER to have a range of 3,200 nautical miles (5,900 km). So, for dual-class operators, while they weren’t going past 189 passengers, they now have an extra amount of range.”

Sales continued to be slow, with Boeing initially promoting the -900ER as a replacement for the Boeing 757.
In another one of his blog columns, Tinseth wrote, “One of [Airbus'] recent marketing thrusts has been around “sharklets” for the A320 family, and along with that what I find interesting is that Airbus is positioning the A321 as a potential replacement for the 757.

“Why is that interesting? Because the best possible 757 replacement already exists — the 737-900ER.”
At the same time, Boeing acknowledged that the -900ER fell short of the 757, an aircraft that with winglets is capable of trans-Atlantic routes. At the roll-out of the first Boeing Sky Interior installed on a customer’s airplane, John Hamilton, an engineer on the 737 program, acknowledged that the -900ER can only do about 80% of the missions of the more capable 757-but he argued that this is enough, at least for now.
In recent times, Boeing’s messaging changed from being a 757 replacement – which the aircraft never truly was – to emphasize up-gauging and lower cost per available seat mile (CASM).

Jeff Knittel, president of CIT Aerospace, is the first lessor to buy the -900ER, and gave this perspective to CAO in an interview:
“A couple of things happened to transform the potential for the -900ER. Customers are up-gauging to drive lower-cost available seat miles. The -900ER improved with the current PIP (Product Improvement Program, in which Boeing and CFM provided another 2% better fuel consumption). Along with a generally improving economy, the 757 is beginning to come near the end of its life.”
The -900ER cost per available seat mile compares favorably to the 757 and Knittel noted that the -900ER is common to the more popular -800, while the 757 is a different fleet type for 737 operators.

“The 757 excels at the edge of its operating performance but the -900ER fits better in scheduled operations of 180 seats.”
Ron Baur agrees. He is VP of Fleet for United Continental Holdings, and the head of fleet acquisition at Continental Airlines prior to the merger and he was responsible for ordering the -900 standard and -900ER.
Continental operates the 757-200 and the 757-300. The -900ER has lower CASM and fuel burn per seat than the much larger 757-300 (as well as the 757-200) on route of 1,000 to 1,500 miles. Part of this is the cost of ownership, Baur admits, but he, like Knittle, says that 757 has superior performance at the edge of its operating range. Less than this, the 757 is simply carrying a lot of its excess capability around. The 737-900 is lighter and capital cost was less.

Indeed, according to information filed with the US Department of Transportation, compiled by the consultancy AirInsight for this article, the hourly cost of a 737-900 operated by Continental Airlines is actually about $250 per hour less than a 737-800 and nearly $1,300 per hour less than a 757-200 at the same carrier. Continental’s 757-300 costs just $7 per hour more than the 757-200, according to the DOT figures.
Alaska Airlines is the only other US carrier operating the 737-900. While Continental operates both the standard and the -ER, and doesn’t break out the costs in the DOT filings, Alaska’s fleet is currently only the standard. It recently ordered the -900ER, with first delivery in 2013. Alaska’s costs are about $600 higher per hour for the -900 vs. the -800.

Andrew Harrison, vice president of planning and revenue management, said Alaska uses the -900 on mid-continental routes such as Seattle-Dallas and Seattle-Minneapolis and Seattle-Alaska because of range limitations. The -900ER will have winglets and an auxiliary fuel tank, which will allow trans-con service from Seattle-Boston and Newark, Seattle-Miami with some seasonal restrictions and Seattle-Honolulu/Kona, also with some seasonal restrictions of perhaps 10 passengers.

Harrison says industry capacity reductions have driven load factors from the 60% range in 1995 to lower 80%.
“If you can fill the larger airplane, you good cost per available seat mile,” Harrison says. Alaska’s -900 standard CASM costs are up to 8% lower than the -800 and up to 20% lower than the 737-700.

Continental’s Baur acknowledged the -900 standard has its limitations; it can go as far as Newark to Salt Lake City but not to the West Coast, nor from Los Angeles to Hawaii. But the aircraft works well between Newark and Florida, for example, where extra capacity over the 737-800 is needed but not the range. Baur says Continental’s scheduling department segregates the -900 standard on routes like these.
“The -900 [standard] was essentially an elongated -800 without increased weight,” Baur says. The -900ER has the range to go US trans-con and West Coast-Hawaii, providing more flexibility.

Boeing hasn’t previously pushed sales of the -900ER, says Knittel and others with knowledge of the situation. “I think they were focused on the -800 because the aircraft worked well and the -900 [standard] was short on range. It was an iterative aircraft . But the drive on seat mile costs has heightened in the last year.”
Baur says people “are very comfortable” with the -800. “We value range. For us it was obvious the airplane had the range.”
A big US 737-800 operator, American Airlines, has yet to be sold on the -900ER.

“The 737-900ER is an interesting aircraft,” says Jay Hancock, managing director of fleet transactions. “We continue to evaluate it along with other future alternatives. We certainly are not at the point where we can make any decisions at this time. We not only have to consider the mission of any new aircraft in itself, but also consider other factors such as what our overall network will look like in the future, as well as how other aircraft types that will be in our fleet will impact the need for another version of the 737 beyond our current 737-800s.”
With Boeing’s sales team now pushing the -900ER more than in the past, additional sales are expected this year.
I get the impression nobody ordered this thing before because nobody wanted it. Boeing stood firm and waited for the need to replace 757s to come along and inevitably a few airlines were then willing to look at it and buy if the price was right. It's kind of like going to the dance and nobody wants to be with you until the cute guy walked out of the room and the girls had no choice but to lower their standards and you were there waiting. "After you've tried the best, then the rest... come try the only thing left."

Inspiring really, for us ugly folks.

gloopy 08-24-2011 01:54 AM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1042979)
I should've thought of that. I'm playing connect 4 while Gary Kelly is playing chess.

Actually if he really wanted to hose us he would suck it up and plan on keeping their 717's long term and saddle us with a tiny fleet of 20 planes and yet another (effectively) fleet type.

gloopy 08-24-2011 02:08 AM

I get the impression nobody ordered this thing before because nobody wanted it. Boeing stood firm and waited for the need to replace 757s to come along and inevitably a few airlines were then willing to look at it and buy if the price was right. It's kind of like going to the dance and nobody wants to be with you until the cute guy walked out of the room and the girls had no choice but to lower their standards and you were there waiting. "After you've tried the best, then the rest... come try the only thing left."

Inspiring really, for us ugly folks.[/QUOTE]

That makes sense. Of course the hidden variable here is what kind of insane deal did we get on these (if the rumor is true)? I never heard a figure for the compensation we are due for the 787 delays and our generous order book relief (two related but separate issues) but I have a feeling the dollar figure is substantial.

A 100 plane firm order (if that is what this is) alone would generate significant discounts over list price. Apply what are probably massive rebates for the 787 mess and these things could be too cheap to pass up. IOW a guaranteed financial win. That is, assuming we still have customers after getting in bed with gojets. Where's the [/barf] icon again?

sailingfun 08-24-2011 02:53 AM


Originally Posted by Clear Right (Post 1043106)
Range| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer

A321 is wider, more overhead room, all around more comfy. Throw in the NEO and Winglets and that changes the whole equation. Here's a quote for you: "The Airbus A321 has similar cabin capacity as the Boeing 757, but has lacked trans-Atlantic range.* With the pending re-engining of the A320 family with the Pratt & Whitney (div. United Technologies) GTF and CFM International (joint venture, GE Aircraft Engines and SNECMA) Leap-X engines, better fuel efficiency is changing the performance equation for the aircraft. * The A321 may be the aircraft that benefits most from re-engining, as it fundamentally changes the potential mission profile from transcontinental to transatlantic in range."


I think you missed the little part about when the NEO is available. Boeing is also coming out with a reengined 737 again however not available when Delta needs jets. Not to mention that at the moment both of these are paper jets. It was thought the NEO would be a easy change for the A320. It has turned out not to be so and Airbus is short on engineers. They now admit it needs among other things. New landing gear, New main wingbox. Stronger wing box attach points, New pylons. It will be interesting to see if they even have the A320 version out on time let alone the A321 Delta would want coming out later. These jets are for delivery in 2013 to 2017. You can't buy what does not exist.
The other thing people keep forgetting it that this is a replacement aircraft for some 757 at Delta. We will keep plenty of 757's in the fleet to cover those routes that require the extra performance until the 900NE and A321NEO are truly available. Probably be around 2019 on those aircraft given the normal delays both Boeing and Airbus seem to have.

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 02:58 AM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1043188)
You can't buy what does not exist.

Now now, American did. :D And everyone who bought the 787 did and guess what, it still doesn't "exist."





(there really should be a tongue and cheek smilie, we don't have a lot of smilies to work with here.)

sailingfun 08-24-2011 03:00 AM


Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1043183)
Actually if he really wanted to hose us he would suck it up and plan on keeping their 717's long term and saddle us with a tiny fleet of 20 planes and yet another (effectively) fleet type.

Why do people keep making up the rumor Delta wants the 717?

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 03:03 AM


Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 1043184)
That makes sense. Of course the hidden variable here is what kind of insane deal did we get on these (if the rumor is true)? I never heard a figure for the compensation we are due for the 787 delays and our generous order book relief (two related but separate issues) but I have a feeling the dollar figure is substantial.

A 100 plane firm order (if that is what this is) alone would generate significant discounts over list price. Apply what are probably massive rebates for the 787 mess and these things could be too cheap to pass up. IOW a guaranteed financial win. That is, assuming we still have customers after getting in bed with gojets. Where's the [/barf] icon again?

It would be fun to know how much we paid and how much the 787 penalties and 717s played a part in the deal not to mention if any deal was struck with SWA for the 717s at the same time or via Boeing.

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 03:08 AM


Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1043192)
Why do people keep making up the rumor Delta wants the 717?

Because the former CLCP for the 88 said the Board wanted it and that SWA wanted to get rid of theirs. Then some pointed out that as of a day or so ago Boeing pulled 20+ 717s off the for sale list.

It's nothing to be upset about. Or is it because it's not a Boeing that's the problem?

I was in the crewroom one day when ALPA was there and some Captain walked up to the rep and asked "what are you doing here?" The Rep explained he was on a listening tour, is there anything you want?

'Yeah, get rid of all the Airbuses."

Now what kind of blatantly ignorant stuck on stupid thought process is that? Seriously, that's how we end up with scope sales. After all Bombardier aren't Boeings, so the I ain't flying them crowd is how we get to a DCI fleet the size of mainline.

I'll fly anything Delta wants to slap it's name on, even a 1977 B58P, Embraer 120 or a 2013 739, i don't care.

tsquare 08-24-2011 03:38 AM


Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1043044)
Sorry for being so DUMB:(

Are you sure Delta is getting the 737-900er? I haven't read any official announcement on Deltanet, on the other hand the info I am getting is just speculation.

If the -900er rumor is true, then I bet we are eyeing another airline (which has future additional 737 orders, hint hint:D) to acquire. Just sayin.

TEN

Since we're rumor mongering.. I'd rather think we are eyeing another airline that has widebody orders rather than more narrowbodies...

tsquare 08-24-2011 03:41 AM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1043054)
That's a good question. Combine all the ER and the ATL 767 categories and you have 257 jets and 3,760 pilots flying them. Take 100 757s away and move them to the lower paying 739 and that's a lot of pilots to cut. At 14.6 pilots per plane (give or take for ER considerations) you're looking to move 1,400+ pilots off the ER and the lone ATL domestic 767 category.

And that's if only 100 757s disappear. What if it's more but only 100 739 replacements?

Time will tell.

And that's IF this whole 739 is true.

But by all means, let's make sure the 747 pays $500/hour and everything goes down from there... anybody starting to see the picture here?

Since LGBP won't fly, ya'll seriously need to get a clue about WB/NB pay... And THAT is lame too.... but better than what we got. How many paycuts will be coming our way with this order (if true)?

slowplay 08-24-2011 03:50 AM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1043194)
Because the former CLCP for the 88 said the Board wanted it and that SWA wanted to get rid of theirs.

Just curious...how much do you think a CLCP knows about fleet strategy and aircraft acquisition? Or how much a Fleet Captain knows about network and revenue management (aircraft allocation)? Or how much anybody not on the BOD knows about BOD deliberations? You might want to look at an org chart and see if these folks are anywhere near the aircraft acquisition and deployment process...

Yet some of you believe these "sources"?:rolleyes:

It is fun to watch all the kvetching over a potential new aircraft order, though. MD-90's get panned, 737's get panned, network gets panned, yet we're making money in a crap economy. That bodes well to get some money back into our contract, but reading here it's all doom, gloom and whine from some of the usual suspects. Nice...:(

tsquare 08-24-2011 03:55 AM


Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1043207)
Just curious...how much do you think a CLCP knows about fleet strategy and aircraft acquisition? Or how much a Fleet Captain knows about network and revenue management (aircraft allocation)? Or how much anybody not on the BOD knows about BOD deliberations? You might want to look at an org chart and see if these folks are anywhere near the aircraft acquisition and deployment process...

Yet some of you believe these "sources"?:rolleyes:

It is fun to watch all the kvetching over a potential new aircraft order, though. MD-90's get panned, 737's get panned, network gets panned, yet we're making money in a crap economy. That bodes well to get some money back into our contract, but reading here it's all doom, gloom and whine from some of the usual suspects. Nice...:(

I have 5000 hours in the left seat of the classic fluff.. I'd go back to that in a heartbeat.. (if I got to drive to work)

It's a Boeing or....

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 03:56 AM


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1043205)
But by all means, let's make sure the 747 pays $500/hour and everything goes down from there... anybody starting to see the picture here?

Since LGBP won't fly, ya'll seriously need to get a clue about WB/NB pay... And THAT is lame too.... but better than what we got. How many paycuts will be coming our way with this order (if true)?

Lots of paycuts. Your idea may be proven in actuality to have been the better choice of the two options as the years go by.

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 04:05 AM


Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 1043207)
Just curious...how much do you think a CLCP knows about fleet strategy and aircraft acquisition? Or how much a Fleet Captain knows about network and revenue management (aircraft allocation)? Or how much anybody not on the BOD knows about BOD deliberations? You might want to look at an org chart and see if these folks are anywhere near the aircraft acquisition and deployment process...

Yet some of you believe these "sources"?:rolleyes:

It is fun to watch all the kvetching over a potential new aircraft order, though. MD-90's get panned, 737's get panned, network gets panned, yet we're making money in a crap economy. That bodes well to get some money back into our contract, but reading here it's all doom, gloom and whine from some of the usual suspects. Nice...:(

His comment was the BOD wants all the MD90s including the Saudi and they want 717s. White papers and conversations about "can you make this happen" and the fact decisions aren't made in a vaccum, I'll take his word that that's exactly what's being contemplated.

JetPilotMike 08-24-2011 04:38 AM

Did they make that -900ER cockpit any roomier, or are you still stuffed in there like a can of sardines? A transcon in that thing is miserable....

Too Tall 08-24-2011 05:25 AM

Everyone is complaining about the 737-900er on here, I know from a pilots prospective it is not even close to the 757 and from a passenger perspective its not as comfortable as an A320/321, but It will be a money making machine for Delta. It will have a very low if not the lowest fuel burn per seat mile of any Delta plane, and there are a lot of great routes for it that don't require the performance of the 757. We will still have a lot of newer 757s left for anything the the 900er can't accomplish. At only 100 orders that still leaves 100 NB replacements Delta still needs. They found an immediate fix for aging planes, and the 100 deliveries starting in 2013 will allow them to sit back and and wait and see if the geared turbofans pan out on efficiency. I'm sure they got a smoking deal on them as well, so I say it is a great decision.

Flying Monkey 08-24-2011 05:40 AM

I guess 'cause I'm a glass half full kinda guy, I'm just glad we will (?) have airplanes on order, and not just parking some 75's. Never been up front on a 73 either, though, so nothing to complain about yet.

Geez Too Tall, your position is worse than mine. Oh wait.....

PilotFrog 08-24-2011 06:49 AM

Well Luckily 2013 deliveries will be in line with our contract update. If we dont recognize that the 900er is a 757 replacement and dont negotiate a good pay rate then we are shooting our own foot.

TOGA LK 08-24-2011 06:49 AM


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1042615)
Not interested in upgrading anytime soon, eh?

Since when have any Delta aircraft orders (787's, MD90's from afar) actually resulted in a net gain of flying for Delta pilots? Answer, they haven't! I wouldn't tie in a purchase of 737-9ers that may or may not happen with upgrades. With our new joint venture buddies down south, out west and the worse scope in the industry, maintaining what flying we currently have will exceed what I am expecting (don't confuse this with what I am hoping for).

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 06:54 AM


Originally Posted by TOGA LK (Post 1043277)
Since when have any Delta aircraft orders (787's, MD90's from afar) actually resulted in a net gain of flying for Delta pilots? Answer, they haven't! I wouldn't tie in a purchase of 737-9ers that may or may not happen with upgrades. With our new joint venture buddies down south, out west and the worse scope in the industry, maintaining what flying we currently have will exceed what I am expecting (don't confuse this with what I am hoping for).

Not to mention, if the 100 739 order is true, how many current aircraft are they aiming to replace with 100? Is it less than a 100, that's awesome, is it more? Not so great.

I'll celebrate the 737-900 order, and I mean celebrate it, if I find out we bought then for $30M or less ($50M off sticker) and they're growth aircraft. I'll celebrate that even if it means a poor performing aircraft that will take too long to turn at a gate and be rather miserable in the back. Fair?

forgot to bid 08-24-2011 07:01 AM


Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1043205)

Since LGBP won't fly, ya'll seriously need to get a clue about WB/NB pay... And THAT is lame too.... but better than what we got. How many paycuts will be coming our way with this order (if true)?

You know, someone reminded me of something here. We actually kind of have an LGBP thing going on the low end of the pay tables.

If you look at Section 3 the EMB-190=CRJ-900 in pay.

But the EMB-190 seats 100 passengers and the CRJ-900 seats 76. Not a whole lot until you realize one is 76% of the size of the larger aircraft. That's equivalent to a 738 equaling the DC95 or 763ER equaling the MD90/738.

Of course we did put the 777 and 747 together and one seats 70% of the other. But their were political reasons for that and the same probably can be said about combining the EMB190 and CRJ900, politically neither will ever be here.

alfaromeo 08-24-2011 07:06 AM


Originally Posted by TOGA LK (Post 1043277)
Since when have any Delta aircraft orders (787's, MD90's from afar) actually resulted in a net gain of flying for Delta pilots? Answer, they haven't! I wouldn't tie in a purchase of 737-9ers that may or may not happen with upgrades. With our new joint venture buddies down south, out west and the worse scope in the industry, maintaining what flying we currently have will exceed what I am expecting (don't confuse this with what I am hoping for).

We hired 700 guys in 2007 and 2008 to fill 757, 777, and 737 additions.

Ferd149 08-24-2011 07:23 AM

Where does this leave the 787.........ok stop laughing, serious question for those who seem to be in the know.

The 787-8 order was paid for, ok at least financed. Then, we pushed our positions back for the better 787-9 (a smart move IMO).

Then we got increased MTOW from Boeing for the 757/767.

Is the 737 order a separate issue? Is all of this tied together somewhere.

Ferd <------really starting to get confused


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