"Hawaiian is ordering a paper airplane at this point and Airbus has a history of over promising and under performing"

Every manufacturer has.

"Every Boeing airplane outperforms the Airbus equivalent in its market niche."

Ahhhh, not true my friend.

"That is why you see airbus narrow body's stuck at FL 390 and below"

Ive flown 319/320/321 with different engines in the tropics and in the cold places and although its been almost 10 years, I do recall spending a lot of time sitting at 37 and 39 looking way down there at 737's.

 

I was referring to actual performance I.e. altitude capability and performance numbers within the market segment. The next gen 737 is a lot better than the Airbus narrow body's . The NEO may be better, we haven't seen the numbers yet. And Boeing has the Max coming.

You may have flown over 737 classics but I doubt they were 700s or 800s. They always seem to be above me as I fly.

I don't know how this discussion got morphed into Hawaiian bashing or even Airbus bashing. I wanted to point out some issues I see based on what I have flown and the places I have flown to. Hawaiian and Airbus may have worked out all the engineering details to ensure that the westbound Hawaiian flying can be done safely. I just would like to see the numbers because my airline will want to do the same. Our 757s are aging and will need to be replaced in the next 7 years.

 

I think a lot of guys on here are conflating A321 with A321NEO.... they may as well be comparing 747-100 with 747-400 ... or 737-200 with 737-700

VERY different airplane.

 

The manufacturer has promised a 15% improvement NEO vs. CEO. I believe there is a significant difference in the order of 30-50% (Wiki- for this discussion, Wiki is appropriate. It’s not a research paper) improvement in performance between a 747-100 vs. a 747-400 and 737-200 vs. a 737-700. IMO, the 15% promised by Airbus is not enough to make up for the CEO’s current lack of performance. If Airbus promised a 30-50% improvement, then I think the airplane would comfortably do what HA wants.

Just to clarify, I am not a Boeing vs. Airbus guy. I have more time in Airbii than any other make. My A320 type and time in type saved my career. I know that Boeing makes fine airplanes as well.

I am not bashing HA or their decision.

I can see HA's predicament. There are no ideally suitable aircraft for their needs. Boeing no longer makes the 757 and their next bigger offering is too big. I do not believe that current B737-700/800/900 would be ideal for HA’s missions either. The MAX hasn't been fully defined yet- It is expected to be competition for the A321 NEO. However, the Max 9 will most likely share the same lack of performance as the A321 NEO. As I said in a earlier post, maybe a mix of all three variants or at least a few A320 NEOs and a majority A321 NEOs would have a provided a hedge for performance critical airfields and/or routes.

Interestingly, Air Asia already has their first A320 CEO with sharklets. The sharklets allow for a 4% less fuel burn (Airbus.com). The rest of the the savings will be from new engines I guess.

I wish nothing but the best for HA. I just wanted to state my opinions on a forum that I believe promotes an open exchange of ideas. I know it can be tricky to gauge tone on a forum, but maybe some lightening-up is in order.

 

Ditch the NEO, go all A330, put the 717 in Alaska, Move Horizon to Hawaii and join forces with Alaska!

 

I spent quite a bit of time doing acceptance and delivery flights on Aairbai and am quite familar aswell with the performance of the 321CEO... I can tell you that with all the needed ETOPS equipment and fuel reserves, the NEO can carry the promised 190 pax over the 2500-/+ NM HAL needs it to without breaking a sweat.. moreover, it can operate those legs from LIH and OGG which is even more critical.. There is no IDEAL jets for this available right now, but this is the most ideal one for the next decade.

 

A very intererseting proposition.... Does the fact that Alaska and Hawaii are not part of the contiguous 48 provide enough business reason to keep them independant and yet profitable over the long run? Many students of the airline industry would say no... the natural oligopoly that will take over as dergulations' semi-monololy withers away some 3 decades later says their both too small to make it in a commercial market.. can they buck the odds? Stay tuned.

 

Hey Hawaiian guys, of your 600 pilots how many are based in HNL and how many in SEA? Thanks in advance.

 

a small fraction, maybe 20... very senior in general. Sadly they're talking of closing this base, and there is no talk of another one on the west coast, but who knows?

 

Damn, Pimp! You are God's Gift to the Aviator!Praise to the might Aairbai acceptor! Just kidding, I always wanted to say "Damm Pimp!"
Good job on the talent, though.

TEN