More US Support for Foriegn Air Carriers
06-01-2012, 09:42 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
Can they have Chapter 11 bankruptcy then?
Double edged sword, your argument, isn't it?
Seems that Lee's game plan is working. You think the boogie man is the foreign airlines, not your own union's policies and strategies.
Think how it would affect the U.S. economy if they ( the UAE ) stopped buying American military hardware as well. They are a strong allie to the USA in the Middle East.
A lot of effects that you are probably not aware of here. But Lee counts on that sort of unsophisticated thinking.
TP
Double edged sword, your argument, isn't it?
Seems that Lee's game plan is working. You think the boogie man is the foreign airlines, not your own union's policies and strategies.
Think how it would affect the U.S. economy if they ( the UAE ) stopped buying American military hardware as well. They are a strong allie to the USA in the Middle East.
A lot of effects that you are probably not aware of here. But Lee counts on that sort of unsophisticated thinking.
TP
And the UAE's military purchases are a drop in the ocean compared to what we spend in their "area of interest". Until they buy a 5th fleet (and then some) and a massive air (and space) military infrastructure and perpetually field hundreds of thousands of their own troops there and all over the world then it really isn't impressing that they buy a few toys from us once in a while, even if the price tag is in the "billions".
We do agree that LM sometimes has a backhanded agenda WRT the pilots he represents. Thats not uncommon though, as power corrupts proportionately up the chain, the easier it becomes to sell out the people down the chain. LM is probably way, way lower than he thinks he is, but it feels good to feel like you're in the inner circle of the big power players.
You're also right that the foreign airlines aren't the boogie man, we are because we not only allow it, we help fund it not only with our direct subsidies to them but with our insane levels of spending, entangling foreign alliances and perpetual interventionism necessitating the policies that come back to harm us in the first place. And to any extent that LM or anyone in the US is responsibile for that, that's 100% their fault.
But what do I know, I'm just a dumb, unsophisticated beer swilling NASCAR redneck that doesn't even know Morris Code or ICAO standard phraseology. Yee haw!
06-01-2012, 10:17 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
Can they have Chapter 11 bankruptcy then?
Double edged sword, your argument, isn't it?
Seems that Lee's game plan is working. You think the boogie man is the foreign airlines, not your own union's policies and strategies.
Think how it would affect the U.S. economy if they ( the UAE ) stopped buying American military hardware as well. They are a strong allie to the USA in the Middle East.
A lot of effects that you are probably not aware of here. But Lee counts on that sort of unsophisticated thinking.
TP
Double edged sword, your argument, isn't it?
Seems that Lee's game plan is working. You think the boogie man is the foreign airlines, not your own union's policies and strategies.
Think how it would affect the U.S. economy if they ( the UAE ) stopped buying American military hardware as well. They are a strong allie to the USA in the Middle East.
A lot of effects that you are probably not aware of here. But Lee counts on that sort of unsophisticated thinking.
TP
Moak should ask the pilots from UAL and DAL if they would like pre-clearance in DXB and DOH. Not to mention the large population of expat and US military families residing in those countries.
While he's at it, he should look at what happened to the Canadian base in Dubai when the government tried to keep EK out of the Canadian market to, appease the Air Canada pilots.
Pull the US forces out of the region? Right, Iran would love that. So would all the "loyal" ALPA pilots as they watched oil prices soar!
Maybe if ALPA had done a better job "protecting the profession" at their own airlines, the Middle East carriers would have had fewer pilots, who lost jobs and pensions, to fuel their incredible growth.
Keep it up TP, your doin' good work!
06-01-2012, 10:28 AM
#13
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Joined APC: May 2012
Position: A 1A
Posts: 6
The bigger problem IMHO is the work rules that these foreign carriers use to compete against us IN OUR OWN COUNTRY. They come over here and out-compete US companies by scrimping on pilot pay, having super-long duty days, and the rights to fly between two US cities using these advantages.
Why is this legal? Its directly undermining the US airline industry.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat. Other foreign carriers can deadhead their crews virtually indefinitely after they operate. Some can fly their pilots much longer actual block times before rest is required. Cheaper pay, and fewer crews required = competitive advantage.
Which is fine if you are flying in your own country. But then they come to the US and have the rights to fly solely within the US using these advantages. (Think cargo companies flying from Asia to the US via Alaska. Huge business. They stop in Anchorage/Fairbanks, go to 1, 2, or even 3 cities in the continental US, then go back through Alaska to Asia.)
Why is that legal? You might say because we have reciprocal agreements, but we have to use our own work rules in their countries, which again puts us at a disadvantage.
Doesn't make sense to allow that within our borders.
Why is this legal? Its directly undermining the US airline industry.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat. Other foreign carriers can deadhead their crews virtually indefinitely after they operate. Some can fly their pilots much longer actual block times before rest is required. Cheaper pay, and fewer crews required = competitive advantage.
Which is fine if you are flying in your own country. But then they come to the US and have the rights to fly solely within the US using these advantages. (Think cargo companies flying from Asia to the US via Alaska. Huge business. They stop in Anchorage/Fairbanks, go to 1, 2, or even 3 cities in the continental US, then go back through Alaska to Asia.)
Why is that legal? You might say because we have reciprocal agreements, but we have to use our own work rules in their countries, which again puts us at a disadvantage.
Doesn't make sense to allow that within our borders.
06-01-2012, 12:30 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
Originally Posted by PurpleKoolAid
The bigger problem IMHO is the work rules that these foreign carriers use to compete against us IN OUR OWN COUNTRY. They come over here and out-compete US companies by scrimping on pilot pay, having super-long duty days, and the rights to fly between two US cities using these advantages.
Why is this legal? Its directly undermining the US airline industry.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat. Other foreign carriers can deadhead their crews virtually indefinitely after they operate. Some can fly their pilots much longer actual block times before rest is required. Cheaper pay, and fewer crews required = competitive advantage.
Why is this legal? Its directly undermining the US airline industry.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat. Other foreign carriers can deadhead their crews virtually indefinitely after they operate. Some can fly their pilots much longer actual block times before rest is required. Cheaper pay, and fewer crews required = competitive advantage.
Let's just take these one at a time:
Scrimping on pilot pay:
EK, EY, and QR all start pilots at close to $100,000/year in salary. They also provide housing, medical, tuition assistance, etc that all combine to a tremendous benefit package. For American citizens the tax advanage using the foreign earned income exclusion means that a first officer salary is almost 100% tax free. Captains ( upgrade occuring at roughly the 5 year point ) make around $150,000-175,000 plus the previously mentioned benefits. Their effective tax rate after the foreign earned income exclusion is between 10 and 20%. Senior captains make over $200,000 year and pay 10 to 20% tax. Meaning their take home is over $160,000/year. I'd hardly call that scrimping.
Super long duty days:
EK and EY operate under the UAE GCAA regulations which are very similar to the UK CAP 371 rules. The longest allowable duty day for a 2 pilot crew is 14 hours and that only if you start work between 0800 and 1300 and fly only one leg. The maximum duty day reduces with each subsequent leg flown. So at that same start time 4 legs would mean a max duty day of 11:45. How's that compare to the 16 hour six sector days in the USA?
The right to fly between two U.S. cities:
No, not passenger airlines.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat:
False, Emirates pilots are paid 100% of their hourly pay for the total flight time whether they are in the flight deck or in the bunk. 32 hour 4 day trips are the norm for U.S. flights.
Again, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've operated under the U.S. FARs and under other foreign regs. The EK regs are far and away the best in terms of flight time limitations and fatigue management. Ever operated FAR 121 Supplemental? It can't get any worse than that, believe me.
Typhoonpilot
06-01-2012, 12:53 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
Originally Posted by gloopy
I'm sure the laws of their respective "countries" will be changed/bent/decreed by any means necessary to insure their survival no matter what including subsidies and favorable treatment by any means necessary. Meanwhile not only do we have to compete with our government giving them a 5 million dollar per year advantage per widebody that our companies are not allowed to get (despite the fact that they are literally swimming in our cash trying to figure out places to put it) they can also outlaw unions and discriminate however they see fit in ways that would have US companies siezed and liquidated, if they weren't boycotted into oblivion first that is.
How about if Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, and Air India ( they were the example for Moak's stand in the previous articles ) all promised to use their Ex-Im financed aircraft to fly city pairs other than to the USA. Then they use their traditionally financed planes to fly to the USA?
How about we go back in time. Did foreign airlines and their pilot unions whine and cry to their government when this happened?:
The U.S. Congress enacted a broad bailout package called the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act, which quickly dispersed $5 billion in compensation grants to the industry to cover losses from the grounding of aircraft and to help subsidize losses through the end of 2001. The law also set up a $10 billion loan-guarantee program to assist the industry with future financing, provide insurance to airlines for domestic air travel, and reimburse airline insurance premium increases until March 2002.
I'll say it again, Moak and ALPA's whinging ( that's a British term ) about Ex-Im financing is so full of holes that it makes ALPA look like a bunch of crybaby losers.
ALPA needs to work to make the profession better for American pilots. There are a variety of ways they can do that, but this is not one of them. How about using ALPA's clout to work towards CAP 371 type Flight and Duty time limitations? Those are a win-win for pilots and airlines. More rational limits and more flexibility for the employer.
Typhoonpilot
06-01-2012, 05:53 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Gloopy
It's Morse code, Samuel F.B. Morse is credited with it. But then we Americans are thought good at comms.
GF
It's Morse code, Samuel F.B. Morse is credited with it. But then we Americans are thought good at comms.
GF
06-01-2012, 06:01 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
How about if Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, and Air India ( they were the example for Moak's stand in the previous articles ) all promised to use their Ex-Im financed aircraft to fly city pairs other than to the USA. Then they use their traditionally financed planes to fly to the USA?
How about we go back in time. Did foreign airlines and their pilot unions whine and cry to their government when this happened?:
The U.S. Congress enacted a broad bailout package called the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act, which quickly dispersed $5 billion in compensation grants to the industry to cover losses from the grounding of aircraft and to help subsidize losses through the end of 2001. The law also set up a $10 billion loan-guarantee program to assist the industry with future financing, provide insurance to airlines for domestic air travel, and reimburse airline insurance premium increases until March 2002.
I'll say it again, Moak and ALPA's whinging ( that's a British term ) about Ex-Im financing is so full of holes that it makes ALPA look like a bunch of crybaby losers.
ALPA needs to work to make the profession better for American pilots. There are a variety of ways they can do that, but this is not one of them. How about using ALPA's clout to work towards CAP 371 type Flight and Duty time limitations? Those are a win-win for pilots and airlines. More rational limits and more flexibility for the employer.
Typhoonpilot
How about we go back in time. Did foreign airlines and their pilot unions whine and cry to their government when this happened?:
The U.S. Congress enacted a broad bailout package called the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act, which quickly dispersed $5 billion in compensation grants to the industry to cover losses from the grounding of aircraft and to help subsidize losses through the end of 2001. The law also set up a $10 billion loan-guarantee program to assist the industry with future financing, provide insurance to airlines for domestic air travel, and reimburse airline insurance premium increases until March 2002.
I'll say it again, Moak and ALPA's whinging ( that's a British term ) about Ex-Im financing is so full of holes that it makes ALPA look like a bunch of crybaby losers.
ALPA needs to work to make the profession better for American pilots. There are a variety of ways they can do that, but this is not one of them. How about using ALPA's clout to work towards CAP 371 type Flight and Duty time limitations? Those are a win-win for pilots and airlines. More rational limits and more flexibility for the employer.
Typhoonpilot
In the meantime I would tariff the foreign airlines for every penny's worth of advantage that they get from purchasing any subsidized widebody aircraft from any manufacturer, prorated for the amount they fly to the US. That way they couldn't get around it by claiming they aren't using "those" airplanes to fly here and poach our passengers with their foreign welfare.
06-01-2012, 06:47 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 747 captain
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
Let's just take these one at a time:
Scrimping on pilot pay:
EK, EY, and QR all start pilots at close to $100,000/year in salary. They also provide housing, medical, tuition assistance, etc that all combine to a tremendous benefit package. For American citizens the tax advanage using the foreign earned income exclusion means that a first officer salary is almost 100% tax free. Captains ( upgrade occuring at roughly the 5 year point ) make around $150,000-175,000 plus the previously mentioned benefits. Their effective tax rate after the foreign earned income exclusion is between 10 and 20%. Senior captains make over $200,000 year and pay 10 to 20% tax. Meaning their take home is over $160,000/year. I'd hardly call that scrimping.
Super long duty days:
EK and EY operate under the UAE GCAA regulations which are very similar to the UK CAP 371 rules. The longest allowable duty day for a 2 pilot crew is 14 hours and that only if you start work between 0800 and 1300 and fly only one leg. The maximum duty day reduces with each subsequent leg flown. So at that same start time 4 legs would mean a max duty day of 11:45. How's that compare to the 16 hour six sector days in the USA?
The right to fly between two U.S. cities:
No, not passenger airlines.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat:
False, Emirates pilots are paid 100% of their hourly pay for the total flight time whether they are in the flight deck or in the bunk. 32 hour 4 day trips are the norm for U.S. flights.
Again, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've operated under the U.S. FARs and under other foreign regs. The EK regs are far and away the best in terms of flight time limitations and fatigue management. Ever operated FAR 121 Supplemental? It can't get any worse than that, believe me.
Typhoonpilot
Scrimping on pilot pay:
EK, EY, and QR all start pilots at close to $100,000/year in salary. They also provide housing, medical, tuition assistance, etc that all combine to a tremendous benefit package. For American citizens the tax advanage using the foreign earned income exclusion means that a first officer salary is almost 100% tax free. Captains ( upgrade occuring at roughly the 5 year point ) make around $150,000-175,000 plus the previously mentioned benefits. Their effective tax rate after the foreign earned income exclusion is between 10 and 20%. Senior captains make over $200,000 year and pay 10 to 20% tax. Meaning their take home is over $160,000/year. I'd hardly call that scrimping.
Super long duty days:
EK and EY operate under the UAE GCAA regulations which are very similar to the UK CAP 371 rules. The longest allowable duty day for a 2 pilot crew is 14 hours and that only if you start work between 0800 and 1300 and fly only one leg. The maximum duty day reduces with each subsequent leg flown. So at that same start time 4 legs would mean a max duty day of 11:45. How's that compare to the 16 hour six sector days in the USA?
The right to fly between two U.S. cities:
No, not passenger airlines.
Emirates doesn't pay pilots for their time on long-haul (multiple crew) flights unless they are actually in the seat:
False, Emirates pilots are paid 100% of their hourly pay for the total flight time whether they are in the flight deck or in the bunk. 32 hour 4 day trips are the norm for U.S. flights.
Again, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've operated under the U.S. FARs and under other foreign regs. The EK regs are far and away the best in terms of flight time limitations and fatigue management. Ever operated FAR 121 Supplemental? It can't get any worse than that, believe me.
Typhoonpilot
Not sure what you want to be done differently about the cargo hub through Anchorage purple
isn't FedEx doing the same with their hub in Guangzhou? They consolidate freight from other destination within mainland China and fly back to the US from there don't they? And DAL flying from their base in Narita to many destinations within SE Asia, CAL doing the same thing.....! Be careful what you wish for
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