Let's talk about the contention that the pay rates are a homerun. Go over to the DALPA site and read Mullis' treatise about Homo Sapiens Day. I am sure that most people on here find him only slightly more obnoxious than me, but I wil preface this by saying that even he and I have had our dust ups. Hell I even threatened to punch him in the nose once. But I digress. In that paper, he lays out the math on how this pay increase is on a percentage basis, vastly superior to C2K, and THAT is apparently the gold standard by which this agreement was to have been measured. Or you can ignore math. There is no spin. It is mathematics, and it is spot on.

Interesting that SWA has to be leaped all in one fell swoop for this to be considered a success. Frankly, I am not worried about SWA because their merger is about to slow their progress to a crawl if not stop it altogether in it's tracks. Look at how it is gonna play out. 1) Garry Ichan has already made public statements to the fact that they need to get costs under control. 2) They just had a merger where they fortunately were able to stomp one group down and limit the monetary damage to FO pay... What I mean here is that instead of having to bring the AT captains up to SWA captain pay, they now only have to bring them up to SWA FO pay because of the way they were essentially stapled... and if we sign this TA, that will become even more apparent because they will ALL be FOs with no potential to upgrade until 2015. That was a HUGE cost savings to SWa management, but they still have an entire group (1700??) pilots that have to be brough tup to at least SOME parity) Point is that they are probably not gonna make any great leaps forward in their upcoming contract. I predict the usual 3% increase, but nothing more than that.. We'll see. Even if they DO make a great stride forward, that would be all the more reason to vote FOR this because it is a 3 year deal, and we will be back at the table with them squarely in our sights... Easy breezy...

The paranoia about the RJs is just silly. The TA recaptures mainline flying. Period. The 717s must come online before the RJs can... the percentages of mainline flying relative to DCI increase with every set of 10 RJs that are allowed. That is a CLEAR win. The 76s are gone never to return. Since we are recapturing the block hours that DCI once flew, it is a win. Percentages of hourly flying are what create jobs.. not how many baby airplanes DCI has...

The furlough protections are absolute and punitive to the company. That is a no brainer.

Guys getting wrapped around the axle about Force Majeur need to understand what that clause means. They cannot just say that just because of unforseen, unplanned for normal events require contract avoidance they will get it is just plain absurd and paranoid. It means that catastrophic events that the company will do what it needs to survive. (Got news... they can do that anyway).


So.. sorry if I was blunt before... I was because it seemed as if you were looking for confirmation of your no reasons.

I predict that in a HI merger, those guys are gonna win.. BIG TIME. Thank goodness there are not very many of them...

I am sure there will be long tall fences in that one..

And I would like to say THANK YOU SIR. I wish we had more like you around.

deleted.. duplicate post for some reason..

Is there something "concrete" out there about a DAL buyout of HA? Seems odd to factor what appears to be nothing more than internet speculation into any TA arguments - for or against.

If I've missed it, my apologies.

Just an observer...

Good luck with your TA.

Whether voting yes or no, these types of speculations are pointless. It falls into the yeah but's and what if's. Again, not very strong arguments. I get the fevor and understand what is at stake, my choice is to mive forward and I will keep listening until i vote on this TA. Still YES for now.

TEX & T

We all have differences of opinions and view points. Let's not go down this road it is nothing but pointless and will only get worse...

Thanks FIIG

Jack, Actually a good post and I like your idealism. In a fair world I would agree with you. However, we don't operate in a fair world. The world we operate in is an industry with razor thin margins, high cost carriers are severely punished and end up in chapter 7 or 11. You can be the highest paid but you had better be the most productive(SW), if you are the least productive average to low pay won't save you(AA, highest cost pilots in industry). When DL enters contract negotiations their goal is more productivity, our goal is more pay less work. If the playing field was level we might accomplish more of our goal but there is this RLA/NMB thingy that severely limits our ability for self help. How do you deal with this, one strategy is to keep improving your contract at every opportunity, LOA's, JCBA 's, even this TA and the realization that other opportunities will arise that allows further improvement. Another strategy is to fight the good fight, draw a line in the sand and stand firm on ideals. The problem with that strategy, however noble, is that in the last decade it hasn't produced one improvement for any negotiating pilot union.
I think the meat of the yes no vote is did our negotiating team get the most bang for the buck or did they leave low fruit hanging. I wasn't in the room but we sent in a very good team and I feel they got us the best deal available.
On to the 76 seat issue: DL is a global hub and spoke carrier that has finally figured out how to make sustained profits in the post deregulation real world. Where it is profitable to fly mainline jets DL flies mainline jets. Where it isn't profitable they use other means, you can say many things about our mgmt team but idiotic isn't one. If they could make money flying 76 seaters at mainline they would but at this time in this industry they can't. One of our mantras was not one more seat,one more pound,one more job. This TA actually accomplishes that, the difference between me and a lot of other posters is that I see less RJ pilots and more mainline pilots as a good thing regardless of the 76 seater issue, when and if we can affordably fly the 76 at mainline we make our stand. Until that time the choice is not either or, it's we have less RJ jobs and more 76 seaters or more RJ jobs and less 76 seaters. I personally prefer less RJ jobs. I've got to get back on my meds, time to workout and back away from the keyboard.

This post illustrates the new dynamic at play in this vote.
This will be the first contract where senior Delta pilots no longer have a DB pension to protect.

In the past, a large number of senior captains could always be counted on to vote yes on any TA that would avoid a strike. They only had a few years to go before starting to collect retirement checks and they wanted no disruptions or harm to the company. They were totally risk averse because of the defined benefit. That factor has been eliminated.

As Timbo said earlier in the thread - this TA does almost nothing for senior widebody captains. The meager pay raises and the paltry 1% bump in DC will have little effect on their retirements. Plus the new work rules will only mean they have to work more hours per month in their final years.

A lot more of those previously automatic yes voters may be tempted to roll the dice and vote no this time.

No.. just speculation. It is a good fit though, and Mr Anderson has repeatedly said that consolidation is not finished. He will be the leader, and not an also ran.