Augmented Crew operations
 

Is there any reg against using 3-pilot or 4-pilot crews for something like a transcon turn, Hawaii turn, LHR turn from the east coast, etc?

I don't know what the rules are about international flights, but I do know that Allegiant uses 3 pilot crews to do LAS-HNL-LAS turns, and LAS-HNL-FAT flights.

Delta (and lots of others) used to run the "3 Man" L10-11 on the ATL to San Juan turn that was over 8 hours round trip, all the time, and west coast all nigher turns too.

Perhaps someone has the ability to cut/paste the part 121 FAR's, but basically, it's 2 pilots, up to 8hrs. 3 pilots for 8-12, and over 12, 4 pilots.

Not sure about any number of landing limits after an ocean crossing, but I know I've done 3 pilots ATL-Shannon, sit 2+hrs. then fly on to Dublin, about 9hrs. total, two landings, and that hurt, even with 3 pilots, that 2 hr. sit after an 8hr. all nighter just killed you and by the time you push for DUB you feel like a sack of dog doo.

Of course when those new Flight Time, Duty Time regs kick in...all that will change, depending on pushback time, number of legs, total on duty time, etc.

Flyboy

FAR 121, Subparts Q, R, and S cover duty, flight time and rest limitations and requirements. Basically, for DOMESTIC operations there is no augmented crew limitations, which I would take to mean the operator cannot use an augmented crew domestically. That is Subpart Q, Domestic; the following two Subparts do show augmented crews and limits for 3 and 4 pilot crews. I googled FAR 121 Pilot Flight Time Limitations, it is in FAR 121.4xx.

I don't disagree with EWRflyr, the operator can put as many pilots as they want, but I don't think Subpart Q would give them additional duty time by doing so.

BTW, FAR 110 defines domestic as "48 states and District of Columbia", so Hawaiian flights fall under Flag or Supplemental and they have augmented crews.

GF

Probably a poorly stated question. There aren't regs AGAINST doing what you asked. There aren't regs AGAINST doing a EWR-ATL turn with 3-pilot crews either. Airlines are free to put as many pilots as they want on their flights...over the minimum required by FARs that is. So of course the airlines are only going to staff a flight with the bare minimum required by the FARs and/or contracts.

Hawaii turns with three pilots were quite common for awhile on our west coast morning departures. Not sure if we are still doing those as turns now that our LAX base has opened up.

The 121 Supplemental that I worked at used augmented crews to do domestic trips. I had always been under the impression you could only do that internationally, but the POI said it was OK. The Supplemental rules also have an international section (121.513 and up if I remember correctly) that talk about augmented crews.

There is a 2 page thread about the subject under the Charter Section.

I'm glad I'm done with that stuff.

Pilotgolfer

I read the reg again and that thread. Yes, I agree Supplementals can apparently use augmented crews domestically. It looks like the Supplementals have stand alone duty/flight limitations and it isn't divided into domestic or international like the scheduled lines are.

But, it is stupid to have an augmented crew flying 6 legs within the US--where is there an opportunity for in-flight rest, which is the whole point of augmenting the crew. The AF reg said 1 6-hour leg or 2 4-hour legs just to allow for in-flight rest.

GF

GF,

I agree with you. We ended up having 3 very tired pilots on those days. The intent of the augmentation rules were for longer haul flying...not the multi leg up and down stuff.

Like I said...I'm glad I'm done with it. That place where I was flying quit doing the augmented crews. The new DO and CP apparently saw it more in line with our way of thinking.

Thanks for the detailed info. I was mostly curious about Domestic ops within the 48, and looks like that is currently prohibited for 3-man crews. I had nightmares of our mgmt team scheduling 3-man redeye transcon turns when the new rest rules go into effect.

Hi, welcome, we've had a lively discussion. All bets are off on the new rules.

GF