For those of you who don't know
01-02-2013 | 04:29 PM
#61
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
NW feeders have been bought by NW mainline in the past- no merger.
DL feeders became wholly owned with the same result... why would DL merge the pilot groups when it can continue to undercut us with the feeder (who now has a guaranteed fleet count (despite if DALPA theoretically wanted to try to take the 76 seat flying back to mainline) through the ~6 year duration of their contract)?
And the precedent set here is a threat, IMO.
01-02-2013 | 05:26 PM
#62
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Not a DALPA guy but here is my take.
Pinnacle has been in negotiations for almost a year now. Pinnacle attended the scope meeting as required in the Admin manual, I think that meeting occurred in February or March 2012 (if the date is wrong forgive me, but it was close to that). At that meeting the scope goals were:
The Pinnacle agreement complies with the scope goals that we mutually agreed to at that meeting. The admin manual does not require joint negotiations or new meetings every time a new proposal is made. I know that once we had our meeting the next time any other carrier heard about our deal was when we had a TA. Please note that the admin manual gives each MEC the right to negotiate their own deal. That was a provision that Delta pilots insisted on to ensure that we always had control over our own fate. Yes, the DPA talking point is truly just a bunch of hooey.
Take a minute to look at the sunset provisions in the Pinnacle bridge agreement. Those provisions mean that there will be no logical restrictions to what we can negotiate in the future given the commitments that Delta has for financing and CPA flying. No one really thinks that Delta could buy 40 CRJ-900's in 2013-14 and then get rid of them in 2015, right?
In the end the bridge agreement doesn't represent any restrictions on us eliminating all RJ's. If Delta wants to get rid of all CRJ's they will have to buy their way out of numerous CPA and financing agreements. Buying their way out this bridge agreement (remember the sunsets) would represent a teeny, teeny fraction of that cost. Just to put things in perspective, the entire yearly pilot contract for 800 Pinnacle pilots would be less than the cost of a few CRJ-900 aircraft. (no offense intended to Pinnacle pilots, it is just a fact of math)
I understand everyone's concern, I would reread the bridge agreement and try to put those sunset provisions in context of what is reasonably possible to achieve in a short time frame and then decide whether this represents a threat or not. Happy New Year.
Pinnacle has been in negotiations for almost a year now. Pinnacle attended the scope meeting as required in the Admin manual, I think that meeting occurred in February or March 2012 (if the date is wrong forgive me, but it was close to that). At that meeting the scope goals were:
- Reduce the share of Delta flying done by DCI carriers
- Increase the share of Delta flying done by mainline pilots
- Provide employment help for pilots who are affected by 1 and 2 above
The Pinnacle agreement complies with the scope goals that we mutually agreed to at that meeting. The admin manual does not require joint negotiations or new meetings every time a new proposal is made. I know that once we had our meeting the next time any other carrier heard about our deal was when we had a TA. Please note that the admin manual gives each MEC the right to negotiate their own deal. That was a provision that Delta pilots insisted on to ensure that we always had control over our own fate. Yes, the DPA talking point is truly just a bunch of hooey.
Take a minute to look at the sunset provisions in the Pinnacle bridge agreement. Those provisions mean that there will be no logical restrictions to what we can negotiate in the future given the commitments that Delta has for financing and CPA flying. No one really thinks that Delta could buy 40 CRJ-900's in 2013-14 and then get rid of them in 2015, right?
In the end the bridge agreement doesn't represent any restrictions on us eliminating all RJ's. If Delta wants to get rid of all CRJ's they will have to buy their way out of numerous CPA and financing agreements. Buying their way out this bridge agreement (remember the sunsets) would represent a teeny, teeny fraction of that cost. Just to put things in perspective, the entire yearly pilot contract for 800 Pinnacle pilots would be less than the cost of a few CRJ-900 aircraft. (no offense intended to Pinnacle pilots, it is just a fact of math)
I understand everyone's concern, I would reread the bridge agreement and try to put those sunset provisions in context of what is reasonably possible to achieve in a short time frame and then decide whether this represents a threat or not. Happy New Year.
As a courtesy I will PM you and offer you the opportunity to write a correction.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-02-2013 at 06:07 PM.
01-02-2013 | 05:34 PM
#63
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
A more likely story is that this is a more brutal form of ALPA's outsourcing partnership with management. Pinnacle's airplanes tied directly to their bankruptcy pay rates. An interview promise for a seriously concessionary contract. Effects that fly in the face of the snap back goals in our union's administrative manual.
Which fabrication (and I'll admit mine is created) squares with the known facts? Delta is not merging with Pinnacle. President Moak had the Compass pilots in the Delta MEC and the Company trying to tie up left over bargaining. He wanted no part of getting the Delta pilots' hands dirty in the market which he has determined is not Delta flying.
It is a bloodbath down there and we are making it worse. By doing these concessionary deals with no hope of snap back we are undercutting our own small jet flying. We are encouraging management to outsource.
Worse, we are sidelining and marginalizing the Delta MEC in the process.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-02-2013 at 05:51 PM.
01-02-2013 | 05:45 PM
#64
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
The Pinnacle pilots haven't voted on anything yet. And I don't remember anyone asking my opinion when they were negotiating this TA. No one knew until the last minute that Delta mgmt was involved. I hope this doesn't become what I think it is. Are Pinnacle pilots going to be lumped in with the "Comair pilots" or JC who didn't want to give you guys a fair shake at Comair? I've seen a lot of unfortunate fallout from the Comair v Delta fiasco and actually haven't spoken to many Comair folks who supported the Lawson administration. Are all Pinnacle pilots now going to be looked at as the enemy of Delta mainline pilots? I am actually very concerned with the fallout of this. I am not disagreeing with you, Bar, or anything you have said. It is all good, solid information. What worries me is the tone that Pinnacle pilots as a group are doing this to you with malicious intent and now we are going to be the enemy. Trust me, that is the last thing we need at this point. Am I, a Pinnacle pilot, going to be looked at as a problem now? I just don't like where this is going.
We have an issue in union governance that needs to be resolved.
The Pinnacle pilots did not cook up this mess, just as the Comair pilots really did not have anything to do with JC Lawson's attempt to use Delta furloughees as leverage.
Wychor is smart and polished. I've not heard his explanation for doing what he did, but unlike Lawson, it appears Wychor had the support of national.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-02-2013 at 06:10 PM.
01-02-2013 | 06:35 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 460
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From: Recovering Airline Pilot
Wait a second, Bucking Bar. Are you telling me that this bridge agreement actually has Delta management committing to a certain DCI fleet size for Pinnacle? I've always thought that you were just complaining about the preferential interview provisions, in which I saw no basis for concern, but if this agreement actually contains a minimum fleet size, then that may be a different story.
01-02-2013 | 06:38 PM
#66
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Wait a second, Bucking Bar. Are you telling me that this bridge agreement actually has Delta management committing to a certain DCI fleet size for Pinnacle? I've always thought that you were just complaining about the preferential interview provisions, in which I saw no basis for concern, but if this agreement actually contains a minimum fleet size, then that may be a different story.
01-02-2013 | 06:44 PM
#67
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Wait a second, Bucking Bar. Are you telling me that this bridge agreement actually has Delta management committing to a certain DCI fleet size for Pinnacle? I've always thought that you were just complaining about the preferential interview provisions, in which I saw no basis for concern, but if this agreement actually contains a minimum fleet size, then that may be a different story.
Alpha is semi-official (close enough to know, distant enough for denial of source ) admin communications. This "trial balloon" (oh yey, we knew and consented) got floated last week and I thought it got shot down hard enough that it surprises me to see a slightly refined version get sent back up this week. To track the changes, Alpha adds the detail of the Delta MEC's compliance with Section 40 in February 2012, and simply spins it as Pinnacle's compliance. (which is fine I guess, but still does not answer the issue of another airline doing a deal directly with Delta management, which is the problem here ... )
The Reps who received the Delta MEC Chair's ASPEN and talked to the gentlemen on the Delta Negotiating Committee probably know better.
Despite the late attempt at web board management
there are the votes to call a Special MEC meeting on the Delta property. I do not know the Delta MEC Chairman, but I would guess he would want to be proactive and call the meeting himself than have his Reps do it for him. Timing stinks, but no one over here had any part in the timing. In fact, if I were a conspiracy theorist I would guess the timing was part of a tactical plan ... which begs the question, what's the emergency? Delta's committing around 2.3 billion in CapEx to Pinnacle. How much of this brinksmanship is simply created to drive the sheep off the cliff?
But I am not a conspiracy theorist. ALPA will reach the correct decision and I will support it.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-02-2013 at 07:02 PM.
01-02-2013 | 08:54 PM
#69
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,773
Likes: 18
PINNACLE AIRLINES BRIDGE AGREEMENT Among
DELTA AIR LINES, INC.,
and
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL and
PINNACLE AIRLINES CORP.
and
PINNACLE MASTER EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
benefits and commitments contained herein and subject to the following conditions:
1. Making Aircraft Commitments
a. Delta commits to maintain in the Delta Connection fleet (i.e., aircraft in service, in maintenance or operational spares) at Pinnacle no fewer than forty-one (41) jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for seventy-six (76) passenger seats and with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seaters”).
b. Delta commits to place and maintain in the Delta Connection fleet at Pinnacle the incremental forty (40) 76-seater deliveries above the total in the Delta Connection fleet as of December 1, 2012 (i.e., 76-seat aircraft numbers 154 through 193 in the Delta Connection fleet). For purposes of this provision, the transfer to Pinnacle of any 76-seater in the Delta Connection fleet at another Delta Connection carrier will offset on a one-for-one basis the commitment to deliver to and maintain at Pinnacle any of such incremental forty (40) 76- seater deliveries.
c. The commitments in Section 1.a.-b. will terminate and shall be of no further force or effect upon the earlier of:
i. the termination of the Delta Connection Agreement between Delta and Pinnacle (“Delta- Pinnacle DCA”), as may be amended from time to time, that governs the operation of the aircraft subject to Section 1.a.-b., in accordance with its terms so long as Pinnacle, or its successor, is not an affiliate (as defined in the Delta PWA) of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
DELTA AIR LINES, INC.,
and
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL and
PINNACLE AIRLINES CORP.
and
PINNACLE MASTER EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
benefits and commitments contained herein and subject to the following conditions:
1. Making Aircraft Commitments
a. Delta commits to maintain in the Delta Connection fleet (i.e., aircraft in service, in maintenance or operational spares) at Pinnacle no fewer than forty-one (41) jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for seventy-six (76) passenger seats and with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seaters”).
b. Delta commits to place and maintain in the Delta Connection fleet at Pinnacle the incremental forty (40) 76-seater deliveries above the total in the Delta Connection fleet as of December 1, 2012 (i.e., 76-seat aircraft numbers 154 through 193 in the Delta Connection fleet). For purposes of this provision, the transfer to Pinnacle of any 76-seater in the Delta Connection fleet at another Delta Connection carrier will offset on a one-for-one basis the commitment to deliver to and maintain at Pinnacle any of such incremental forty (40) 76- seater deliveries.
c. The commitments in Section 1.a.-b. will terminate and shall be of no further force or effect upon the earlier of:
i. the termination of the Delta Connection Agreement between Delta and Pinnacle (“Delta- Pinnacle DCA”), as may be amended from time to time, that governs the operation of the aircraft subject to Section 1.a.-b., in accordance with its terms so long as Pinnacle, or its successor, is not an affiliate (as defined in the Delta PWA) of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
01-03-2013 | 06:07 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
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Lawson spoke for the Comair pilots, end of story.
