For those of you who don't know
 

Dear Fellow Pilots,

For those of you who don't know, soon a concessionary contract will be put before the rank and file of the Pinnacle pilots. Again for those who don't know, Delta has essentially put a gun to the head of the Pinnacle pilots saying "Take a pay cut or we will shut you down."

I have but one question: If Pinnacle pilots stand tall and refuse to take a pay cut, will those who refused to be part of the race to the bottom be recognized by the pilots involved in the interview process?

I'm not asking for any preferential treatment prior to the interview, nor am I asking that an unqualified guy get the nod. But when one of us appears before your panel, will you give us at least a little more consideration in the interview considering we fought the good fight?

Many of you folks are fighting to take back scope. We in the regionals appreciate that. But if we bite the bullet and draw a line in the sand, will we who try to hold the line on sinking wages get at least a bit of support when we appear in front of fellow pilots in interviews?

How you answer will not affect my "no to pay cuts" vote. I am too old to go back to sitting FO reserve even at a mainline (I am bound to go back to 135 work if the company folds). But it will affect many folks younger than I.

I ask you to declare your support, and give the young folks another reason to say no to pay cuts.

Respectfully,
John Hickman, Colgan Saab 340 CA soon to be Pinnacle 200 FO

My opinion only:

At Delta, most of the pilots that do the interviewing are retired Delta guys or are very senior captains. Very few know (or care) about what is happening at the regional airline level. A lot of the interviewers are former military and have a hard time relating to what is going on a XYZ regional airline.

Personally, I think that it is admirable to take a stand and tell them NO - we won't stand for the constant undercutting shell game (although its likely to continue perpetually). I wouldn't expect to be looked at any differently by the hiring boards though.

Best of luck to you.

Completely agree with Moonshot's thoughts.

And there will be at least one H.R. person sitting in on the interview. I can assure you, he/she won't take your line-in-the-sand as admirable whatsoever.

Sorry that's the way is it, but I wouldn't count on any martyr points from the interview panel. Me, yes. Them, not so much.

I think a little differently than this. While I agree with moonshot that regional issues are pretty far outside the "radar" of the flt ops interview panel rep(s). I think at the end of the day, how you voted has no bearing on your interview.

If you get invited to interview, you are qualified. The panel goes through your paperwork to make sure it is still correct. The interviewers then concentrate on "YOU" the interviewee. This part of the interview is to find out how you are as a person and if you are a good fit.

How you vote on a TA is not connected to how you are as a person.

The HR panel will be comprised of 3 people (so there is a tiebreaker). It is a pretty low key talk about you, your flying and your interests. When you walk into the room, you are a blank slate. They start off wanting you, it is up to the interviewee to become "unwanted."

So, short story, long; Your TA vote has no bearing on your intervew IMO.

Is this a serious question???

No offense to you John. I know you and I respect how you feel about this TA even though I disagree with you.

But you have to consider that it's never made public to anyone, unless you personally state it, who voted which way. Your next airline won't ask you in the interview how you voted. I'm honestly not sure if they're allowed too either. Voting "no" will not help you at your next airline with the exception of you'll be there much faster by doing so.

Agree with the above: your vote has no bearing on the job, unless of course you MAKE it part of the interview. I can't imagine THEY ever would bring up the TA.

I don't think they ever interview someone they wouldn't want to hire, aren't interested in hiring. All you have to do is not prove them wrong.

So, its Delta's fault that Pinnacle is in this position? My suggestion to you is, if you're invited to an interview, act like the professional pilot you're suppose to be, forget the bad that happened in your last company, and stay positive. Bring those bad feelings about your last, or current, employer into the interview and quickly see the red reject stamp hit your application. You are basically asking for preferential treatment. I understand where you're coming from. Sometimes the world doesn't spend the way we want it and life isn't fare, but you just have to get back up and fight your way back. It'll suck but you'll be rewarded in the end. A lot of us have been down your road and few gave a helping hand. That's just the way it is. Good luck and no matter what keep your head up.

Yes, yes. I agree with all of this as well. I'm just saying, if you're foolish enough to bring up your concerns with pay and the "race to the bottom", expect no mercy from anyone - especially HR employees towing the company line. I'm not suggesting anyone is going to start an interview with, "so, how did you vote on the TA?"
As Moonshot said, the captains will most likely be oblivious to the situation. HR folks would only see a potential disgruntled employee, and will draw a red frowny face next to your name.

Actually, I think you have to go back to the original post, and the point being made about Delta "putting a gun to the heads" of the Pinnacle pilots. Delta did this because in this case, it needed to, and because it can.

The relationship between the two airlines is not that of independent and equal partners, but a subservient agreement, whereby the regional exists as a scope exception, and is allowed to defy the laws of economics for a while, because it suits the master. At some point, the master's interest shifts, and it becomes convenient to dump an entire regional, or several, or to squeeze one through CH11. In the process, this master might suddenly drop the benevolent mask, and be revealing as the controlling, and potentially abusive entity they always were. I suppose this might come as a shock to some, who were allowed to frolic a while, under the illusion of freedom (no pun intended, Mesa). Just ask the Independence Air guys when you see one.

This is an ugly industry, and the regionals are to a mainline what an Indian call center is to Dell. If you work for an Indian call center, you make acceptable wages, and you do OK until your call center is cut from the Dell contract, maybe at the exact same time that HP, several airlines, and a bunch if banks cut theirs, and you're still in India.

At that point, if you were interested in a Visa to the States, you'd not argue with Immigration about how you fought the good fight in India. You'd just have to decide whether you want to talk about the visa OR the fight.

That's the nature of it.

great synopsis sink.

In the movie, Delta is played by Dr Rick Marshall, Pinnacle is played by Chaka:

Land Of The Lost : Chaka (2009) HD Trailer - YouTube

Land of the Lost (2009): Trapped in Cave - Video

Sorry for the ads.:D

You'll take a stand, vote no, get shut down, and GoJet will pick up your scraps.

Moonshot said it best.

My much less refined response:
It doesn't matter how "brave" your pilot group was, have up to date logbooks, a clean suit (red tie if its a Delta interview) and bring a positive attitude to the interviewers.. Nobody really cares what you were doing before as long as you left on good terms and kept your record mostly clean.

The union doesn't control or have any say in hiring.. That is the purview and responsibility of management.

Good luck, and don't use your vote to "send a message," thibk through the ramifications and the possible resuts 1-3 years from now. It doesn't matter to the managers.... This is purely a business/economic event, use your knowledge and to come to a thoughtful conclusion either in favor or against, and then prepare to continue your career goals.

Just to add some perspective to all the conjecture, there are plenty of pilots at DL (and every where else for that matter) from airlines that shut down for whatever reason, went on strike or didn't agree to pay cuts, etc.

Also HR has no idea how you voted or where you stood and odds are extremely slim that they ask. To anyone in an interview, a previous employer is just another part of one's job history. No one will care unless you bring it up and force them to dig into the issue.

If there is any preference, it will most likely be indirect and impossible to ever prove. In the case of Pinnacle, everyone there will be able to check the current or former DCI pilot box on the app, which itself gives some weightning to the application, not sure how much though.

If Pinnacle does end up shutting down, of if one is furloughed from there, keep doing your best to stay current and employed and "manage your career" to the best of one's ability. Come interview time that will far outweigh any negative bias stemming from a concessions vote, if there is any, which I doubt there would ever be anyway. Its just business, and they know that.

Classic case of ALPA eating ALPA? This is where there is a massive conflict of interest within ALPA. Kind of like what the concussed (5-1) starter Alex Smith got when he returned....to the bench?? Amazing to watch professionals fight in the same ALPA sand box.........

$1.6 billion profit for 2012, doubt they needed to. The rest of your post is spot on, unfortunately. Some people will never be able to grasp this. Lifer's want their 120,000+ paychecks for 20 days off. The regional model never supported that. Comair and Pinnacle are living proof. When/if this contracts goes through SkyWest and XJT are next. I don't care how big your "economies of scale" are. Actually, regardless whether this TA goes through, SkyWest and XJT are next. Pinnacle is still a higher cost company than Gojet and Compass, even with the concessionary TA. Eliminate Pinnacle and there is one less company in the average cost formula. For those who think the outcome of this TA will directly effect negotiations are foolish to think they are safe from Daddy D. Comair, Regional Elite, Pinnacle, Delta is just going down the list. If Pinnacle vanishes the average just goes down that much more.

Totally agree with Sink.

They are getting mechanisms in place to transfer flying from XJT/ASA/SKW as soon as 9E signs the deal. You can see what is coming from a mile away.

somehow you missed gojet.

oh and rah.

remember, when the flying is transferred it goes to non alpa carriers.

Don Delta Corleone...taking out all in his path.

...make 'em an offer they can't refuse.
So sorry to hear for the Pinnacle piolts.

That doesn't even make sense....How is ALPA eating ALPA? Love to know how you get that from PCL's situation....

A flying for a "contractor"/"wet lease" company is always going to be at the whim of the employer (i.e. major airline). When your employer is in Ch.11 your fate rests with the creditors/DIP financier. This has NOTHING to do with pilot unions.

What do you mean? Transfer flying to Pinnacle?

It's not a conflict of interest? Then what is it? Do you know what is happening over there? Open your eyes please. They are also both represented by ALPA? You even argue my point?

Define your perceived "conflict" and I'd be happy to rationally debate it. I do happen to know what is happening over there. My eyes are wide open, I'd truly like to understand what it is you are seeing out of this. The representational agent has nothing to do with this. For example: GM, Ford, and Delphi workers have different factories represented by the same union... Nobody there complains of representational conflict of interest.

That's no longer true if the Pinnacle TA passes.
Delta will be forced to interview some folks that have no business being there.

Even the most strident ALPA guys I fly with--even a couple of current and former committee chairmen--reluctantly admit there is a gross conflict of interest when mainline pilots subsidize pilot groups who are trying to undercut them.

Pinnacle's agreement is probably the milepost which the end of ALPA will be measured.

An express carrier will "own" mainline flying enforceable by contract with the mainline parent. Permitted flying has been transferred under contract and is now committed to an express carrier. These negotiations were done with the mainline pilots locked out the room. President Moak intends to cram Pinnacle scope down on to the Delta pilots.

If this were part of a "dream" to improve express pay by gaining them their own scope it might be a good thing, but, Pinnacle's committed aircraft are tied to their bankruptcy concessions. Further, six months after the Pinnacle amenable date, the commitment disappears. Due to the length of the Pinnacle contract, the Pinnacle scope will supersede Delta's next bargaining cycle.

Even if ALPA does survive this move far beyond what the Ford-Cooksey plaintiffs wished to achieve, ALPA's ability to bargain for mainline carriers will be severely compromised as they no longer enjoy autonomy and exclusivity with their management.

Delta mainline is officially now just a DCI carrier.

I have to agree with Bar about the dangers of this precedent.
If Moak does this thing, the Delta pilots will live to regret the day we allowed another pilot group to establish their own scope clause with Delta management.
It will undermine our Section 1 in a fundamental way.

So is there anyone left on the planet that believes ALPA is actually there for the pilots, and not itself?

So what happens when Pinnacle or Republic or whoever signs a deal with Delta guaranteeing them to fly 737s for Delta in exchange for xyz concessions and furlough protection in their contract. Of course, the regiona airline's MEC negotiates for it and the pilots at said regional vote for it. In order to save jobs and go along with the wishes of its members, ALPA national signs off on it.

Thanks to it being written later on, the lawyers have more experience and knowledge behind them into these scope sections and it is written more iron-clad than the Delta pilot's scope section. In court, it prevails over Delta pilot scope.

An agreement like this, as others have said, could destroy the pilot profession. Outsourcing will officially go from "they gave the flying away" to "we took the flying from them."

Some may not believe this could happen, but it could. It already is with this agreement. Delta is contractually signing a fleet count with Pinnacle. Unlike an agreement to outsource like in the past, which is just between the two airlines.... this one is being negotiated and signed by ALPA and put into a pilot working agreement. It will make it so that Delta pilots fundamentally cannot fight to regain scope in their next contract negotiations. ALPA has already signed the dotted line allowing that outsourcing to exist at another airline. All this without Delta pilots even allowed a seat at the table or a signature on the page. And we all know that, thanks to history, once these things get going, they never stop and grow out of control.


This is really bad. In 10 or 20 years, this could be remembered as a monumental screw up by ALPA just as large as letting the first RJ be outsourced 20 years ago. This has to be stopped.

Has anyone seen the complete agreement?

Any update from DALPA on this subject? Bar?

I'm getting more and more lost on this one, Bar. As far as I understood the issue earlier, there might or might not have been a meet-and-confer failure, something we couldn't demonstrate, and Delta used their leverage to drive the Pinnacle reorganization, which includes the pilot deal, which now sounds like it comes with a semi-automatic flow progress, where Delta can take out applicants it doesn't want. And some have even said it might only be a preferential interview deal.

As far as ownership of permitted flying, we permit it, and Delta contracts for it. Seems to me each DCI carrier has a ling-term contract for their protection. How does this one break the mold, other than what I described in the preceding paragraph?

Not arguing with you, just trying to understand issues.

The problem, along with others, as I understand it....

Delta management and ALPA signed an agreement with another airline's pilot group for guaranteed Delta flying.

Delta pilots were taken out of the loop and the Delta pilot working agreement's scope section is no longer the sole legal controlling document ALPA has signed regarding the outsourcing of Delta flying. There now exists another legally binding agreement between Delta and ALPA that Delta pilots have no control over.

I don't quite agree. I say it IS still the only document that controls what and how much flying is permitted to be outsourced. Here is the DAL PWA:

SECTION 1

SCOPE

A. Recognition

1. In accordance with the certification issued by the National Mediation Board in Case No. R-7191, 36 NMB No. 21, January 22, 2009, the Company recognizes the Air Line Pilots Association, International, as the duly designated and authorized representative of the Flight Deck Crewmembers in the service of the Company for the purposes of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.

There is nothing in that sentence that specifically references the Delta MEC. In a weird sort of way it tightens scope from an "ALPA" perspective, but the process by which it all has come about might present a question mark within the organization.

The Pinnacle Flight Deck Crewmembers are still in the service of Pinnacle, NOT Delta.

Personally, I'm leaning more towards Sinkr8's point of view rather than it being an unmitigated disaster. I'm still confident that the EC or EB will take notice and make sure that the Policy Manual is being followed. We have a process, it was worked for a long time, it hasn't failed us yet.

John

Maybe I'm missing something. If you feel you're already too old to sit reserve as an FO at mainline, why would you even interview at DAL?

We have a lot of old dudes sitting in the right seat at DAL, me included, that have little hope of ever seeing the left seat again. If you're not prepared to sit as an FO on reserve, DAL probably isn't the place for you.

Good luck and hang in there.

Buzz

A question mark indeed.
If we let this genie out of the bottle it could have far reaching consequences. You say that it tightens ALPA scope "in a weird sort of way". Maybe. But doesn't it also allow management to pick which pilot group they want to bargain with? If Delta Air Lines can contractually obligate themselves to assign flying to Pinnacle Airlines pilots, what happens when Delta decides to sign a deal with some other pilot union for some other flying? Maybe Teamsters or an independent. Maybe some mainline jets. How does ALPA tell them they can't do that if we allow it in this case?

I am very suspicious of ALPA National. They have proven in the past that they do not always have the Delta pilots' best interests in mind.

Moak seems to view himself as some sort of transformational figure in the field of labor-management relations. He's gone "all-in" with his constructive engagement strategy. He thinks he is leading the way into some bright new future where management is no longer adversarial or hostile to labor and we all work together in harmony to achieve common goals.

I hope he knows what he is doing here. I think this is a dangerous game he's playing. Its a pretty big legal leap to allow a single carrier to make contracts with more than one pilot group and ALPA's lawyers do not exactly have a stellar record when it comes to unforeseen consequences.

This one breaks the mold because it allows another pilot group to come in and deal with Delta management. In this case, Pinnacle exercised an "exclusive" relationship with Delta management because the Delta pilots were not even advised such negotiations were taking place.

There were multiple violations of ALPA's Administrative Manual, Section 40. But, the biggest concern is the abrogation of our MEC's autonomy as it has been defined under our Constitution and Bylaws.

ALPA National is saying "there is nothing to see here, move on." Some D-ALPA Reps have taken the time to research and wrap their heads around this. They are very concerned. Some D-ALPA Reps call up the COC to see what they should say, and that's what they say. Perhaps a Special MEC meeting will provide an opportunity for Reps to share their perspectives and learn from one another.

The rubber meets the road at a couple of points. First, as a loyal ALPA member, I have to hope the Representation Department and Officers will take seriously their duty to uphold the Constitution and Bylaws and nip this thing in the bud, sooner rather than later. (so far, no joy) Then it becomes an issue for ALPA's Executive Council of MEC Chairmen to take up. They collectively can over ride a President.

My guess (and I don't know) is that ALPA's attorneys are going to be perceived as the trusted experts and their opinion will matter greatly. The problem is that ALPA's attorneys work for ALPA and advocate for their client. In this case, that means when a conflict may exist between national and a MEC, national wins (they sign the paychecks).

Once the mainline MECs figure out that national (may) let express carriers walk in and deal with mainline management in a way that preempts and limits the mainline MEC's bargaining, the mainline pilots will run out of ALPA like someone yelled "fire" in a crowded theater.

Don't take this as advocacy for decertification. No alternative is in a position to replace ALPA. ALPA does a irreplaceable service on Capitol Hill and has the potential to represent us most effectively to our management. The Pinnacle contract poses a problem which should be resolved in the normal course of union governance. A lot of good people work in our union and we have to trust they will do their job, even at the risk of being unpopular. Lee Moak has been effective and has mostly been good for our union. He may not see the harm in letting regional carriers engage in "left over bargaining" and I see no great harm in the results of the Pinnacle agreement. The great harm is the threat to MEC autonomy and the unilateral bargaining which appears contrary to our Constitution and Bylaws.

Thanks Bar, Lolwut for expanding.

Part of me thinks this is no different than negotiating with wholly-owned carriers in the past, i.e. with Comair, to strong-arm them. At that point, I don't think the DAL MEC was involved. The communication chain changes somehwat due to Pinnacle's reorganization, and Delta's rolw in it, but it's still Delta dealing through whatever channels to negotiate permitted flying. I assume this went through the same DCI puppet-master that coordinated every other deal on permitted flying.

However, I agree that it raises questions about constructive engagement, and the role of ALPA. I checked with my rep on this, and can't get conclusive answers, because he doesn't have conclusive answers either. Seems like it's certainly on the radar screen.

I'll keep following the discussion.

I'm much more interested in what discussions take place between DAL and Virgin Atlantic, and this might very well dovetail into that.