AW and USAirway Pilot Senority List
12-02-2006, 09:14 PM
#1
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AW and USAirway Pilot Senority List
If ALPA thought it was okay for American to "Staple" TWA guys to the bottom since American was saving their butts, then why aren't the US Air guys getting "Stapled' to the bottom of AW's list. Seems a bit hypocritical. Rules sometimes suck but we learn to live with them and understood them when we took the job.
12-02-2006, 09:25 PM
#2
Ben Salley
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Originally Posted by Spanky189
If ALPA thought it was okay for American to "Staple" TWA guys to the bottom since American was saving their butts, then why aren't the US Air guys getting "Stapled' to the bottom of AW's list. Seems a bit hypocritical. Rules sometimes suck but we learn to live with them and understood them when we took the job.
12-02-2006, 10:02 PM
#3
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I'll Reword the question
Originally Posted by A320fumes
American is not ALPA.
Reword: If an airline saves another from demise and saves the jobs of the pilot group by offering to give them jobs at the saving airline by 'stapling' them to the bottom of their senoirity list (thus preserving their jobs) then why do the US Airways pilots think there should be a special dispensation for their situation? Shouldn't they be stapled to AW's senority list since AW saved their butts? Fact is that AW saved that company and now the US Airways pilots are stepping up and trying to 'hose' the AW guys!
12-02-2006, 10:16 PM
#4
Ben Salley
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Originally Posted by Spanky189
Granted.
Reword: If an airline saves another from demise and saves the jobs of the pilot group by offering to give them jobs at the saving airline by 'stapling' them to the bottom of their senoirity list (thus preserving their jobs) then why do the US Airways pilots think there should be a special dispensation for their situation? Shouldn't they be stapled to AW's senority list since AW saved their butts? Fact is that AW saved that company and now the US Airways pilots are stepping up and trying to 'hose' the AW guys!
Reword: If an airline saves another from demise and saves the jobs of the pilot group by offering to give them jobs at the saving airline by 'stapling' them to the bottom of their senoirity list (thus preserving their jobs) then why do the US Airways pilots think there should be a special dispensation for their situation? Shouldn't they be stapled to AW's senority list since AW saved their butts? Fact is that AW saved that company and now the US Airways pilots are stepping up and trying to 'hose' the AW guys!
12-02-2006, 11:15 PM
#5
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AW saved US Airways butt
Originally Posted by A320fumes
USAirways, as I understand it, was not acquired by AW. All funds were external and therefore more merger than aquisition. I don't think anyone should be stapled.
12-03-2006, 03:16 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by Spanky189
Granted.
Reword: If an airline saves another from demise and saves the jobs of the pilot group by offering to give them jobs at the saving airline by 'stapling' them to the bottom of their senoirity list (thus preserving their jobs) then why do the US Airways pilots think there should be a special dispensation for their situation? Shouldn't they be stapled to AW's senority list since AW saved their butts? Fact is that AW saved that company and now the US Airways pilots are stepping up and trying to 'hose' the AW guys!
Reword: If an airline saves another from demise and saves the jobs of the pilot group by offering to give them jobs at the saving airline by 'stapling' them to the bottom of their senoirity list (thus preserving their jobs) then why do the US Airways pilots think there should be a special dispensation for their situation? Shouldn't they be stapled to AW's senority list since AW saved their butts? Fact is that AW saved that company and now the US Airways pilots are stepping up and trying to 'hose' the AW guys!
12-03-2006, 07:16 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by A320fumes
USAirways, as I understand it, was not acquired by AW. All funds were external and therefore more merger than aquisition. I don't think anyone should be stapled.
I was up to my eyeballs in US back in 2004-2005, and anyone in the trenchs could see they were already toast...it was only a matter of time.
12-03-2006, 07:19 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by Spanky189
Call it whatever you want to... AW SAVED US AIRWAYS! Shouldn't US pilots be stapled to the bottom? If not, I am trully interested in why not. American did that to TWA guys after they saved them. This is not meant to be sarcstic, just inquisitive from a non-union type person...
Reading a little history goes a long way. Past merger precedent - ESPECIALLY with two ALPA airlines - will show you that they typically go with Date of Hire. If not DOH, then by ratio or slotted integration. An ALPA/ALPA merger RARELY gets any staple, except maybe the Empire/Piedmont merger, where Empire pilots all got tacked on to the bottom. (Was Empire even ALPA?)
Anyways, when you have an ALPA airline merge or get bought out by a non ALPA airline, there is no set procedure. Whoever does the buying calls the shots. And it usually comes out unfair for one or both groups.
US/AWA are both ALPA, therefore the deal will go to arbitration (as it should be with all mergers.) One notable exception - Pan Am and DAL. Both were ALPA, and yet DAL only took the Pan Am Airbus pilots, while tossing out the senior and junior Pan Am pilots to the unemployment office. However, the argument can be made that this deal was only an asset acquisition, not a merger.
12-03-2006, 08:25 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by HotMamaPilot
even though AW is technically the overtaking airline, you guys are getting the better end of the deal. You are getting to fly international routes on bigger aircraft and such. stop your whining
If this is the "better end of the deal", I'd hate to see what the WORSE end of the deal is ...
I'm not "whining" ... but NO ONE from AWA is "getting to fly international routes on bigger aircraft ..." PLEASE enlighten me as to where I can bid and receive this flying, I am ALL ears !
SIMPLE FACTS ...
AWA management came up with a financial package to purchase the assets of a BANKRUPT USAir ... So it was a financial asset acqusition ... SO WHAT ... doesn't mean anything to the ALPA pilots anyway
The actual combination of the companies will be considered a MERGER of the air carrier cetificates by the pilot groups involved ... which is all that REALLY should matter to us anyway.
Our seniority lists are SO DISIMILIAR that the end result will most likely be determined by an arbitrator utilizing ratios, slots, fences, and percentages that no one will understand but the arbitrator himself.
We will remain ****ed off at each other for years and therefore remain the lowest paid pilot group of the majors ...
End of story ...
Later, CC
12-03-2006, 08:29 AM
#10
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Originally Posted by aa73
Spanky,
Reading a little history goes a long way. Past merger precedent - ESPECIALLY with two ALPA airlines - will show you that they typically go with Date of Hire. If not DOH, then by ratio or slotted integration. merger, where Empire pilots all got tacked on to the bottom. (Was An ALPA/ALPA merger RARELY gets any staple, except maybe the Empire/Piedmont Empire even ALPA?)
US/AWA are both ALPA, therefore the deal will go to arbitration (as it should be with all mergers.) One notable exception - Pan Am and DAL. Both were ALPA, and yet DAL only took the Pan Am Airbus pilots, while tossing out the senior and junior Pan Am pilots to the unemployment office. However, the argument can be made that this deal was only an asset acquisition, not a merger.
Reading a little history goes a long way. Past merger precedent - ESPECIALLY with two ALPA airlines - will show you that they typically go with Date of Hire. If not DOH, then by ratio or slotted integration. merger, where Empire pilots all got tacked on to the bottom. (Was An ALPA/ALPA merger RARELY gets any staple, except maybe the Empire/Piedmont Empire even ALPA?)
US/AWA are both ALPA, therefore the deal will go to arbitration (as it should be with all mergers.) One notable exception - Pan Am and DAL. Both were ALPA, and yet DAL only took the Pan Am Airbus pilots, while tossing out the senior and junior Pan Am pilots to the unemployment office. However, the argument can be made that this deal was only an asset acquisition, not a merger.
To be more acccurate from above. Piedmont was a Major Airline.
Empire was basically a commuter Airline (read low pay, no work rules and no reitrement)that flew small 65 passenger Jets (F-28s). When Piedmont bought Empire the intergration was not quite a Staple Job as you implied. The Empire Pilots did go to the bottom of the Overall Seniority list, but the Kept their F-28 Seniority #'s. In other words if the Former Empire Pilots stayed on the F-28 they kept their original Empire Seniority.......on the F-28. If they bid to bigger paying airplanes (Piedmont had 737's and 727' 767's at the time) they went to the bottom......Very few complained too hard because the got a Big pay raise, did not lose F-28 seniority and were now working at a highly desirable Major Airline .....Piedmont, that is it was desirable before USAir bought them.:
