JetBlue has a bunch of company appointed committee members working on the 117 regs. ALPA has pro pilot members working on the same regs interpretation. Hopefully ALPAs interpretation will be used as compared to a bunch of ladder climbers.

Jetblue movement...
 

They are both ladder climbers dude. ALPA is just a business with a corporate structure and politics.

That being said, I'll never understand why people with no ambition to "move up" have such disdain for those who do. Mind your own business, and do your job. If you are happy as a line pilot, why hate on someone who wants to do more?

There is a difference when the ladder climbers sell out their fellow pilots or subordinate pilots to obtain their position.

Jetblue movement...
 

Agreed. That applies to any corporation though, and some seem to judge anyone who chooses to do things outside of flying regardless of their ethics.

Once again you speak without knowing what's going on. Shut up and listen.

At JetBlue, joining a committee to move into management became so rampant that language had to be incorporated into the 5 documents to prevent it. Why do you think our trips have declined to the rate they have. Why do we have section 14,15 language with the holes we do. Why do you think our disability and premium pay changed in the manner they did.

Again, you have no clue how things work at JetBlue.

Atleast ALPA members are elected. At JetBlue they are appointed.

ALPA ALPA ALPA. Why is it ALPA pilots b*tch about ALPA so much the same as we do about the D R and every other airline complains about what they have. Try to pay attention to other carriers. Pilots are bailing from ALPA as fast as they can for a reason.
We need a cba? Yes. Representation? Yes. ALPA? I don't know.

ALPA isn't a nonprofit out to just help pilots. They do what's in their best interest which doesn't usually line up with what the majority of pilots best interest is

Jetblue movement...
 

Look, BenzoBullsh!t, I know enough about politics, and enough about airlines in general to know that your attitude sucks.

By the way, not everyone at ALPA is elected, and certainly not to the committees they are appointed to once elected. If you think there isn't a bunch if back-stabbing politics at ALPA, the YOU are the one who needs to shut up and listen because YOU are the one who doesn't know anything.

I've been ALPA and seen the process. Is it perfect, no but with any union structure there are elections. Major committees who have appointments are appointed by the people we elect.

Since you know everything having been here 6 months you know that every major committee has members appointed by management and not by pilots. Those management appointed pilots are now in charge of every major pilot department at JetBlue. And did these appointees take care of the pilots on their steady climb? Since your six months has been filled with experience then you know the answer to that question in NO.

Pilots appointing pilots is one thing. Management appointing pilots to represent management interests on pilot committees is another.

But again, your extensive ALPA, union and JetBlue experience is clearly worth something.

Jetblue movement...
 

I've been reading your posts for long enough to know how full of crap you are.

Again, call your PVC rep to verify.

It's always easier to live in fantasy land.

But then that's the problem with pilots like you.

Yup...his name is C.S.

I know what the problems are. You and I just disagree on the solution. I prefer to not jump from the frying pan into the fire. But hey, some people need to actually experience their mistakes to learn anything. I'll be happy to tell you "I told you so" a year after ALPA gets voted in.

If we vote ALPA in, it will take at least 2 contracts to get back to where we are right now. It isn't an instant fix. Plus, I figure we've got enough politics, so why add another political group?

So you can give me crap about being junior, but my vote will still cancel yours out. :)

I see your point. I think you are wrong in the two contract assumption. Check out any of the historical examples of ALPA or union represented pilot groups. The ALPA represented group historical came out better in their first contract in comparison to their pre-union deal. Spirit and most likely Allegant (IBT still in negotiations ) are the most recent examples of this. The bottom line is protections, our PEA's provides us almost nothing- little to no scope protection, no health care protections(as proven by this years gutting of our below average plan we had last year), no retirement protections, no merger protection. The best part is if a group of us have a realistic grievance about a violation of our PEA we get to individually fight it. I don't know about you but I can't afford the legal team that the company can however ALPA/IBT can. I really want this to be my last airline I don't see how that is possible without a CBA.

The FSM is violated on a daily many many times.

Healthcare is NEVER going to cost less than it does now. This is a reality of the post apocalyptic 2008 Econmic Disaster world we live in. Site anyone's contract it's futile. ALL corporations will emulate rewards programs that pass costs to the employee. You have to go into an ALPA vote knowing this. A big reality of the great jetblue healthcare rollout was the threat of contracts from labor unions. (PILOTS, FA's & MECH) A CBA will prevent that from happening again, but won't turn back the clock.

I'm more pi$$ed that 3A is now a bargaining chip in terms of the industry standard wage raise I was essentially promised by management before they lost 3A. 3A has nothing to do with me or the double digit raise that was discussed last Spring. Now, they're going to bone me on a raise because of the legal team's massive blunder. That should make junior guys angry.

-Bubs

Agreed on the health care issue, my point is that without a CBA the company can and will change any of our benefits/retirement/scope/ merger protections in a moments notice. We only have one bargaining chip, if you want to call it that. Luckily without a PEA amendment none of us are legally protected to fly the 321. Anyone who flies the 321 without it in your PEA would be held liable if anything were to happen on board the aircraft. "Essentially someone could stub their toe on your aircraft and you would be liable." from my legal council. I for one won't sign a PEA amendment without that double didget pay increase that they have been dangling for a year plus now.

Welcome to suck. The process is whatever they want it to be. It always will be under the DR.

Comical and sad. The very people you defend have stated quite clearly your job protection is not a concern of theirs. Example the 5 documents.

The very people you despise and refuse to support are the only ones who will fight to protect your job and career.

In the end it will be sad for all of us but most difficult for the junior pilots.

You are a broken record. Those that'll vote for it will already. You've probably got the majority of votes this time so why not drop it

Right, you turned down UAL with 400+ retirement annually for 10 years and then 700+ , 100K + second year pay on the smallest a/c, and 16% retirement plan with out BS, not mentioning healthcare coverage.
jetBlue was great, but can't compete with new 3 legacy players anymore, or in compensation for pilots.
Since November, I have moved 5% in seniority within 10K pilot group. The latest UA bid for SFO shows additional 200+ vacancies no filled from system 14-2.
In two years of jetBlue experience on A320 I wasn't moving at all. The movement in jetBlue will be at the bottom 20%, after the rest of the DAL and AA guys go back. The average age of pilots in jetBlue is 42, if you the bottom guy, even if the company doubles in size, you will be stuck for 20 years as a junior CA.
Ask yourself, if JB is such a great place to be, why senior CA bailing out back to DAL?
This is business, noting personal, the moment JB encounters some rough waters, you'll see what direct relationship means, and then your truly yours Managment will bail, after selling you out.

Southerner, I have to ask. Do you have an understanding of business statistics?


JetBlue Pilots are OUTLIERS in many categories of their compensation. Worse, the probability or improvement of EVER reaching even industry AVERAGE in compensation and benefits, under the DR model, is EXTREMELY unlikely.


That's a FACT!


The DR is not going to deliver. There's only ONE alternative.


OTHER PILOT GROUPS negotiate and HAVE NEGOTIATED better compensation/ Benefits/ Protections etc.

What BENEFIT do you see JB Pilots enjoying under the DR????????????????


When you go making major purchases, does the other guy just tell you the price and you just accept it and pay up? Or, do you employ some business acumen and NEGOTIATE for what YOU believe is a fair deal?






JJ

This two contract horsesh!t is right out of the Ford and Harrison playbook and has no historical relevance. Name the precedent!

Maybe Dave is whispering this in your ear....try thinking for yourself and give us the facts jack.

Or they could could just lay off more pilots and shrink to profitability. Plus i don't care to commute to Newark or Houston for the next couple of year when i drive to work. The decision didn't take to long for me and my family. However, If that was DAL I wouldn't have thought twice. Yes I am rolling the dice by staying over going to UAL, only history will tell. You are 100 percent right about the DR and management, I know they will sell us out that is why we need a CBA. As for captains bailing to go back to DAL, AA or UAL who could blame them, I certainly don't. That is a whole different deal than starting over at a new company.

Southerner, we will make gains in the first contract. The company knows we are going to obtain a CBA. Hence the butt raping over the past 2+ years.

Why do you care?
Guys get so upset about what other people do.
The real question for blue pilots is vote in a union or not.
I don't remember climb being a juicer he seems to see the bad and dare I say the good sides of jeBlue.

Climb450 gets it. UAL DaL ect, isn't for everyone.


Southerner on the other hand, probably never will.

Jetblue movement...
 

Whatever. I see the good and bad of B6. I just don't agree with you guys about the solution.

We can disagree. It's okay

Will you at least agree we need a change?

Jetblue movement...
 

I've said over and over that I see the problems. I do NOT think ALPA is the solution. I would prefer a CBA with an in house union.

I think market forces are going to fix our issues way faster than a union ever could. Attrition will demand change. Businesses respond to market forces.

Southern,

In house only works if the company (ELT) supports it.....btw this has been tried......ELT did NOT support it. They felt kicked in the teeth.

Everyone (pilots) would prefer to settle the issues gentlemanly.....company does not want you to be a partner in the solution. Small in house union has a small Buget(all coming from YOUR personal paycheck...I.E. no seed money (loan) from our fellow airline pilots) Do you know what they will do to our small budget.......ask the AirTran guys, ask FedEx, he!! Ask the continental guys. Ask anyone of them.

But if you want an house......start the drive!

Oh and I am not picking on you southern but the argument you make....I am glad you see that you recognize our need to change our relationship with the ELT (I have decided a divorce is due) but I do not believe in house will work.

I think market forces will change some things for us in the short run however not to industry standard. Just enough to slow the bleed of pilots to an accptable loss. Without a CBA those things will be gone with the first hicup in the economy. I would like to see in house in the long run but unfortunatly IBT/ALPA has deep enough pockets to weather the initial onslot and get us thru the initial rough years. I would rather see an in house like SWAPA but our management does not embrace a union(or the fixed cost perspective that a union can offer) the way SW management did in their begining years. Hence the first org that offfers a CBA/representation has my vote. I appreciate your difference in perspective but I care more about some level of representation and a CBA than none at all (even if it is ALPA).

Without a doubt pay and benefits are important but an even greater concern is protecting our careers. Only a CBA can provide us the necessary merger language. Only ALPA has the legal resources to enforce that language.
Barger himself will tell you we are a target. We have been in the past and will continue to be so in the future. In fact, the analyst were upset last year when Jetblue refused to accept AA's NDA request. This decision, in the end, becomes the Board of Directors. If the offer is significant enough then the airline will sell. Look at the current and planned infrastructure upgrades. Building terminals and lodges which other airlines will use.

First, I don't care what other people do, but if you're truly concern about your future as a pilot in this profession, you have to make sound decision.
Why would you turn down the job offer that give you pretty good future advancements and opportunities, with pretty good contract that is already in place with all benefits that jetBlue pilots can only dream of, and then stick to the company that has questionable future, no contract, and below average salary. There is something strange about it.
Another aspect of this whole "I turn down United offer" - Why would you go for reenterview if you did not plan to go there in the first place.
I believe he was just full of sh....t
JetBlue will continue hiring, young inexperienced FO from regionals with 1600 hours total, making $30/h, a d convincing them that making $70 is a lot of money on the bus, they will continue voting no for ALPA, and you'll continue trying to catch up with Legacies.
Remember, that in the past, it wasn't jetBlue who was paying good salaries: remember "shiny jet syndrome" http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/o...c_view/gid,24/.
It was jetBlue who was lowering the bar with pay and legacies were matching "industry" average until the collapse, then all of the sudden jetBlue strat looking pretty good with extra pay and other "work to death" incentives.
Good luck getting union, I just think I would rather go where union is already in place with good contract and movement possibilities, then wait and see approach.
Who knows, perhaps jetBlue will end up as a good place to be, but I can't waste any more time waiting, I have to act now when gates are wide open. Good luck.

You do seem to care which is what I don't understand.
And before you became a high and mighty United pilot( which EVERYONE dreams of) you were part of "lowering the bar"
I am glad you made it to where you wanted to go, how about you help the blue guys that want to go there and leave the ones who want to stay alone. Or just keep telling us that United is better and we will never amount to anything......looks like you fit right in.

So with all of this movement can new hires expect a line quickly?

Relatively yes.

If everyone does what they say they will you might be a Captain in a year. But yes you should get a line pretty quick.

He can't focus on anything else he has a miserable life and has to attack those that are not unhappy. Good luck jetlink you need it more than we do

Not everyone's perspective is the same. I have seen UAL hire until they layoff twice. In March 2008 I was almost a part of it. I can't leave a company that has never furloughed a pilot for that kind of hiring plan. Yes JB has a questionable future but so does this entire industry. Good luck to you as well.