Bottom of SWA or bottom of new American?
 

You wise old airline guys dust off your crystal ball.....for us military folks new to the 121 airline gig what's your advice....

Now that the American/US Airways merger looks like a done deal....Assuming you get offers at both SWA and New American/US Airways which is better long term (say the next 20 yrs)?

SWA:
PROs: Good work rules, good pay.
CONs: very slow seniority movement (15 yr upgrades?) unless there is growth, single aircraft type.

New American:
PROs: Lots of retirements (10 yr upgrades?), largest airline, variety of flying.
CONs: merger thrash for the next couple years and work rules that need to improve at the next JCBA.

Work rules/pay/domiciles seem to change but pilot demographics (ie age/mandatory retirements) seem to be a constant with American/US Airways being very old and SWA being relatively young with fewer mandatory retirements.

I understand seniority is everything in the airlines. Does that tip the balance to New American?

SWA life....

AA, no question.

Whoever calls you first then if you get another offer decide then.

Well, do you want to fly for a glorified regional or the world's new largest airline?

Airline life is always better living in domicile. Commuting is stressful, takes time and cost money. I'd take that into consideration and look at what airline would match up best with your situation.

If it doesn't make much difference, AA seems the better choice to me right now. It's all about seniority and progression "should" be better there. (but people were saying the same thing back in 99'-00') Good Luck.

Short answer to your question: Yes!:)

Longer answer, a lot depends on what you are looking for or, in other words, what's important to you. Does either airline have a base where you want to live (that has a high probability of remaining)? Would flying one aircraft for your entire career bother you? Do you want to fly international? Seniority wise, I'd go with American.

Bottom line, they are both very good airlines. Go with the first one that hires you (I did and I was lucky) and if you get hired by the other while in training..............then make your choice. In the long run, I don't think you could go wrong either way.

As a new guy at American, I wouldn't worry about the merger angst. You'd be on the bottom and, other than listening to guys beyotch about an SLI, it's really not going to affect you.

Don't forget there are other airlines out there too!:)

Denny

Strike,

I would not listen to anyone who is absolutely certain which company to choose. Especially those who make snarky (see above) remarks and have shown bias towards one airline or another in the past. You can view each contributors posts from the past to see if they are worth listening to. Some comments need to be relegated to the IHSWA thread.:rolleyes:

Frankly, as a long time employee at SWA I still look forward to going
to work. That given, some of the arguments to choose the "new" AA are certainly good ones. Evaluate the truly helpful comments and make a decision on what is best for you. Good luck!

The Oscar

P. S. These same decisions have been discussed for decades. This very decision was being made by my fellow squadron mates in the 80's. I will only say that some of them made a decision and then, because of bad luck are now at little 'ol SWA. What appears to be a slam dunk in this industry usually isn't.

I think unless you live in OAK or LAS, seems like AA would be best long term. Looking at the mou, the CA pay is higher per hour than SWA CA pay once you get up to 2018 and up for group 2. Also, mou states 16% into 401k - not bad. Plus I would think a new hire would stay on reserve longer at SWA since they would be behind all air tran. You mentioned work rules at Aa. The mou states 13 days off for a 31 day month for reserves and 12 days off for all other months. Should go into affect very soon. I'm fairly certain work rules will be same as dal or better for the new jcba.

If you want to fly only the 737, multiple legs/day in general, for your career; SWA.

If you want to cross the pond at 64N watching the auroras, enjoy pub grub and fine beers, and get paid for sleeping for hours in a bunk; AA. ;)

As a new hire, I flew a 24 leg three day trip as a 727-100 FE. Decided I didn't like that at all - the extreme multi-leg stuff.

In seriousness, they both have positives. I found that I greatly prefer long haul, and it's nice to have a choice. I also found more than about 8 years in one equipment type bored me silly. It's nice to move around a bit.

I would take the first one that offered you the job. You can work there, see how it goes and keep applying to the other one if you don't like it.

Airlines are funny. A candidate can look like the perfect fit and not get hired.

SW is a great company. I have friends that left here (US) have not looked back even though they are still a F/O there and could be a captain here. Will they change their mind now that it looks like a merger will go through? Who knows. They say it was like Piedmont used to be, they enjoy going to work while they didn't in the darkest days of US.

There is going to be a couple years of rough edges to knock off at the new AA. Sounds like SW has a few with AT.

I have enjoyed the variety of flying I've done here, from 8 legs a day on the F-28 to trans-Atlantic on the 767. I have over 8,000 hours on the 737 and enjoyed it when I flew it, but after the 767 and A320 I never want to fly another one. I never flew the NG, and even though I'm sure it's better, it's still a 737.

Good luck!

Agreed on the horror of flying a 737 several legs a day til you retire in a system that requires you to turn airplanes fast, fly fast, and pick up extra trips in order to get paid well. I'd rather have the option of wide body flying, 1 leg 20 or so days off a month.

I guess that comes down to personal preference. I like that AA allows you the choice to fly narrow or wide body (when you can hold it), intl or domestic

SW buddy last week - "so, what are you doing? I'm still on the 737." That's his standard line for the last....15 yrs.

SW is a great company. No doubt about it. Massive growth phase is over. Competitive advantage has shrunk or disappeared. Slow advancement. The decision to go to SW is different today than it was in days past.

AA/US has a lot of retirements coming up. Upgrade probably 10 yrs. Or skip the upgrade and continue to fly FO n/b domestic, or Caribbean, or w/b's to Asia, or Europe, of visit your second family in S. America. Having the choices is huge. For many domestic flying is a huge PITA compared to international flying.

Among the Big 3 the career expectations are probably close enough(no one knows the future) that I'd put the airline that has a MAJOR crew base in my home town as my first choice. Not commuting, and living close to the airport, is a huge QWL improvement.

There's reason w/b intl flying goes senior to n/b domestic flying. It's not just the pay. It's different. Different airplane. Different type of flying. Different cities. Different cultures. Fewer departures(majority of the work B.S. comes during preflight/loading). Bigger cockpit. Quieter cockpit. Longer trips = longer days off breaks. Overwater(HF good, CPDLC heaven) = no VHF radio noise.

There's a reason the majority of guys that go international stick with it. Some guys hate it. But the key issue they had the choice, stuck their toe in the water, and didn't like it. That's not an option at a primarily domestic or n/b airline.

Turn SW down? No. But if a Big 3 called I'd be gone.

The one thing I've learned over the last 13 years....take other pilots opinion with a grain of salt.....this pertains to:

Money
Stock decisions
Bidding
Commuting
Training


Whenever a pilot starts advice with " what you should do that is the first sign that you may want to seek advice elsewhere....

Whenever a pilot or future pilot asks me for advice, I usually say " there are many ways to...... I did it this way but only because my situation was....... But you'll have to decide what is best for your situation....." Too many pilots think they have it all figured out and they're way is best.....and they'll let you know it....

BTW, the one time I followed the recommendation of a pilot, I lost out big on a stock purchase......... I believe his exact words were.... " you have gotta be crazy to buy them, they be bankrupt in a month...." Instead I would have probably quadrupled my money by now.....

Lesson learned:D

It's all perspective, what one is used, and where expectations lie.

But a different way to say the above in regards to SW would more along the lines of "just fly your awarded line to get paid well, pick up to get paid VERY well".

But that's just me. One thing this job has taught me is to live WELL within my means, and DON'T ever have that mindset of "next year I;ll be be making xx amount so I can start spending that, then next year I'll be making xxxx so I can start spending xxxx", etc.

To the OP, you DON'T have a choice till you have BOTH job offers in hand. What if you ended up being hell bent on AA, interviewed, didn't get it, but turned down a SW interview based on wanting AA? Not that you would, but just throwing it out there. Meanwhile, you're holding your breath waiting for DAL or UAL to call? I know, it'll just be a matter of time before you get a call with the numbers coming up. But even before 9/11 when the hiring was VERY good, I saw a couple friends in this scenario;

#1) Can't get a call. Competitive, multiple recs, just not happening yet
#2) Interviewed, but sadly had a bad day and got a TBNT, reapply in a year
#3) Interviewed, got selected, and is in a pool, waiting on a class date.
#4) Interviewed, got selected, AND offered a class date.

Now imagine, at that time, if #4 was SW, FedEx, or UPS?

If you were to ask this question back pre 9/11, it would have been bottom of (insert legacy) as an automatic answer. So imagine how much it must suck NOW for the guys that went to SW pre 9/11 and stayed? That's sarcasm........

Things change, you'll NEVER know till you retire what was and wasn't a good move in your career.

Don't forget advice about relationships.

If you are fortunate enough to have a choice, that is outstanding. John Carr is right, though. Understand the cyclic nature of this business and realize that chances are good that today's OK contract will quite possibly get gutted tomorrow and there is an even chance you'll get laid off at some point. Not trying to be negative, but if anyone thinks that it's all smooth sailing because guys are retiring and airlines are hiring, they're delusional. Live below your salary, have a rainy day fund, and be financially and emotionally prepared when things go south.

FWIW... if you make a decision based on a pay comparison, remember that seniority is forever, and pay is a snapshot in time. SWA might be paying more now than some of the legacies, but this was not always the case, and probably won't be in the future. Besides, how long will it take you to get to the higher rungs of the ladder? IMHO, simply looking at payscales is a huge mistake.

This is true. SWA is a great airline with the best 737 pay in the industry. On pay alone the decision is difficult. I think what AA does offer is flexibility in that the fleet and type of flying varies significantly so you can pick and choose what works best for you as you age. Theres nothing "wrong" with the way SWA does things, but by very nature of the flying, its fast paced and requires a pilot that likes to be on the move. That go,go,go attitude is admirable, especially when Im sitting in the jumpseat :) However, some of us ask ourselves, do I want to do that when im 60? At that age many guys want to be in a widebody doing an easy leg to Europe or Asia, 30 something hours off, come back, and then not fly again for a week or more.

This in no way is about "size" of aircraft as it is about the style of flying.

lol @ whoever posted visiting your second family in South America

I would agree with all that. But the more and more time I spend in a SW JS, they seem to be flying less legs than they traditionally did. And a DAL friend of mine showed me his domestic 757 rotation. 14 legs in 4 days, longest overnight is 13 hours. Not ALL the time, but good grief.

When I'm 60, do I wanna do that? Heeeeeeeeeck no. But at 60, I'm not sure I wanna be doing back side of the clock European 3 days either. OR 3.5-4 day orient trips. I KNOW, they pay well and give time off. But where I commuted from, there's A LOT of very senior/silverbacks that do that. They're in their mid to late 50's, they look like death warmed over commuting home with them.

All good points. If swa has good 1-2 leg options that's fantastic. It definitely comes down to the type of flying that suits the individual. I like that if you don't like a particular fleet at a major, or if you grow tired of it, or whatever other reasons, you can bid something else.

I'd be interested in hearing from a SWA guy on how their relative seniority affects trip quality. Do senior guys get day turns worth 8 hours? Are junior guys resigned to 10 leg 3-day trips? Are they all 3 day trips, or a mix of 1, 2, 3, 4 days?

At AA at least, the senior-most nb domestic trips are typically day turns worth 7 to 8 hours, with those going West (like DFW-SEA) being preferred to DFW-LGA. We have guys that have been on the MD-80 for 20 years and do nothing but the same sequence, forever and ever. They know every frequency between DFW and SEA! There's a lot to be said for comfortable routine.

I'll give you a current perspective from someone who is one step ahead of you leaving the military for the first time:

Location, Location, Location.

You don't want to move around any more, you don't want to fly to get to work and you don't want to share beds and rooms anymore than you already had to in the military. You see the pay scales are always shifting and there are always unions and carriers either on the rise or in decline...no one carrier is going to be perfectly protected. I've noticed that morale and perspective changes based on seniority and life experiences so there isn't one company where everybody is happy or free of rotten employees.

Location, Location, Location.

Your junior line number will mean last choice of vacations and last choice of flying lines (and even reserve lines) so why further constrict your lack of choices by losing time with commuting and sitting reserve outside your house? One of the more notable differences I've become aware of is after you run your last checklist, you are done. No office visits, no hanging out, no nagging list of requirements or videos to watch. Your time begins as soon as you are done at the aircraft...why give any of that time up? There are projections and estimates of when people can move domiciles or upgrade but why gamble? You also want your next interview to be your last one. Set your work up in a location that meets all of your other life goals and remember:

the people who survive this industry when it constricts are the people at the top...you don't get to the top without time served.

Career longevity and where will you be happiest?

i have flown 3 airplanes i wouldn't mind spending a decade or so on,the DC3,the 727,and the 747,but back to the original post, its all apples and oranges,get the offer first, you really could not go to far wrong with either,or.

The best gig going seems to be wide body AA FO who can promote to captain but elects to stay FO.

If this was 1995, I would say SWA (due to upgrade times), but it is 2013, and from merely an upgrade time standpoint/build seniority quick standpoint, I would say AA, in 2013

+1..............

I would say AA, but only from a seniority moving standpoint due to hiring and retirements. Get the 10yr upgrade out of your mind as that is extremely optimistic. The qol will get better quicker.
Then just feed through the rest of the posts, but remember that those are just our opinions. You know what they say about those.
GL.

I know dudes at Airtran who went there due to domicile. Now they're staring at commuting way the eff West due to the SW merger and the resulting domicile displacement. So it certainly ain't that simple I'm afraid. Now, if you can afford to uproot the family every time your career gets domicile displaced, sure location location location.

BTW, what's junior domicile at American these days?

Sky Nazi or Kool Aid drinker? My own opinion is mil guys put too much initial emphasis on atmosphere, not economics or upgrades. Five years into your career you will finally understand nobody in management gives a tinkers damn about you, so go based on:

Long term stability
Domicile options
Upgrade demographics
Type flying
Pay


Why is pay last? It often changes. The other factors can also change but tend to be more static.

International flying is cool for all the reasons indicated. More money, more adventure, more time off. I would go Us Air/AA and never look back.

Junior base at AA? It's probably close. MIA or LGA. It varies.

About to become DFW -- 120 or so unfilled DFW S80 FO vacancies.

Appreciate all the advice. Two factors I should add that have some impact.

1. I've been at US Airways about 6 months. I'll have to continue to commute but I have a seniority number. I am about 6-12 months from holding a line, which would dramatically improve quality of life. Commuting is friendly here with jumpseat reservation 7 days prior. But I will be commuting long term.

2. SWA has a mid seniority base near where I live but it would take 3-5 yrs to get based there to sit weekend reserve. Driving to work for the last 10-15 years of my career would be awesome....but I have kids at home that will be out of the house in 6-9 yrs so I'm concerned I'll miss all the weekend activities for those critical next 6 years. Particularly since SWA reserve seems to be all weekends for the new guys and forecast is for sloooow seniority movement with the AirTran pilots coming over in 2014 ahead of any new hires like me.

Thanks!

Let me tell you a story about previous client...

Goes to CAL. Gets furloughed. Disgruntled a bit at low pay, no insurance, and rough treatment. Goes on mil leave a while, then gets recalled. Interviews at SWA and then takes it. Resigns...

3 years later....

Looking at bottom of SWA list for some time. Commutes from a long way away to OAK. Sees old contemporaries at U/CAL and realizes his early experience in no way resembles what he left. I always say equating your first 24 months in an airline to airline life is like comparing being a freshman in ROTC or the AFA to being an operational IP in a fighter squadron. You have to do one to get to do the other, but the experiences are very, very different.

Punchline? My former client is going to interview at UAL. Don't know his odds, but can say if given the chance wants to go, even if he will be several hundred numbers below his previous number. Why? Go re-read the above posts.

DAL/LAX/SJC/PHX are all 1 hops from DEN. I'd say its a safe bet in 5 years you could hold international WB at one of those bases, and be home more than you'd be home flying R days at SWA. And your family can non-rev to Paris, Japan, Buenos Aires, etc. Do you really think even if SWA ever does do over-water ops to Hawaii or other Caribbean destinations you will be able to hold those trips?

I predict you are 6 months from the suck being over. I think you are 18 months from things being....well....fun. YMMV. I could be wrong. But you are going to be looking up at the seniority list in frustration at SWA for a long, long time. Still some Airtran guys due to come over...if any of them are ski bums you may be further from DEN than you realize.

Or drink the kool-aid. Listen to how SWA has always taken care of their people. Re-read nuts. Rub the tummy on the Herb Kelleher doll and hope for the best... My own take is companies are constantly evolving and changing. Delta quit being a "family" in the 90s. Our own senior FedEx guys lament at times the lack of camaraderie that permeated the place until about a decade ago. Jetblue is in its own little adolescent angst as they morph into a larger company--with a union still an unknown. This is pure, ********* business and nothing less. There is no heart, there is no soul, there are contracts and business cycles. You caught the leading edge of a wave with contacts improving and a very real opportunity to advance your career. You are considering giving that up to go chase the very best place to be hired in 1994. I think you are overlooking the fact many scoffed at SWA in 94, just as you are scoffing US Air/AA in 2014. The simple fact is if you stay at AA, you may be stuck at the bottom for a while. You probably won't. If you go to SWA, you will be stuck at the bottom, and it will be decades before you see significant advancement. At US Air, you will have a choice in the type of flying you do. At SWA, your choice is AMs or PMs. Got a Vegas buddy there for 7 -8 years...holds a line and flys Sun-Tues most weeks. Works for him, but a little variety--especially when facing working for another 15-22 years--goes a long way.

In any case, you'll have a job at the end of this most guys would kill for, so that is the silver lining. I just think the lost decade of legacy flying is about to get pretty good again, and you are uniquely situated to ride the crest of that wave.

Albie,

Do you have a similar examination for someone thinking of leaving JetBlue (less than a year seniority) for SWA?

Midwest commuter. 40 YO. Young kid at home.

Apples to oranges. SWA is union. SWA has better contract. Both with have a long upgrade. SWA offers more bases. From a pure business perspective, I think SWA wins hands down. You will give up some international flying but as SWA backfills Airtran routes its probably a wash.

SWA pays more. Considerably more. That's a big deal.

JB Management has shown they will change rules at will. (No animals shall walk upright on two legs...) like the Pigs in Animal Farm. If we go with the proven theorem that all airline managers are cost cutting machines that care nothing about individuals, then the best place to work is the place with the best protections against same. In that arena, SWA wins hands down.

Again...anything I say could be 100% wrong...

Thank you.

I personally 2 guys who have been hired by SWA who are not going to take the job. I congratulate those who accepted the job at SWA, but I think people are taking that job knowing they will be at the bottom for a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time. They'll make ok money as FO's, but QOL will suck for omg forever.

That depends entirely on where you live (or choose to live). I have 29 guys below me at SWA and have a good QOL. I live in domicile and can hold weekday reserve or a blank line (most likely weekends) if I so choose. I have Christmas and New Years's off. I am also able to pick up open time and fly as much as I want to. Not to mention, going to work is a lot of fun, which counts for something as well.

Albie, as a 13 year AAI guy, soon to be a 10-yr SWA guy, I couldn't agree more. I'm considering trading my "10 years" at SWA for the bottom of DAL, AMR or UCAL myself, for the same reasons you listed above. Thankfully, I'm financially secure and don't have to chase the money anymore.