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Originally Posted by CAAC ATP
(Post 1529074)
Fair is a stupid word. It is only an opinion and never fact.
Let me get this straight, if US pilots lobby the government and support ALPA's Capitol Hill influence by donating to ALPA PAC they are crying "life isn't fair"? In that case, I guess living within the United State's system of government isn't fair to you. Everyone with a dog in this fight is a business and working with the system we have to gain advantage. Emirates, Boeing, ALPA PAC, and Delta will lobby with money. The UAE will try to influence with money and threats. Hopefully, American (citizens) pilots will lobby through their voice and vote. This argument has nothing to do with customer service. I guess Carl already beat that dead horse. This is a trade and protectionism issue. This is an issue in which the US Government needs to take a hard look at what benefit the US Airline industry brings to this country and what national security issues may result in the weakening of our industry. What does Emirates offer the United States in trade? Perhaps they can feed a domestic operation, but at what cost? Will the UAE in turn offer 5th freedom rights to United and Delta through Dubai or Abu Dhabi? I think not. What are they using as leverage then? They are using their huge orders of Boeings and Airbus and threats to peddle their wares. I see Emirates and Etihad offering a positive bump to our manufacturing sector which is very short term compared to the negative impact they will have on our Airline industry if we open our skies to them. I would go so far to say the negative impact would be permanent rather than long term. Carl |
Originally Posted by dckozak
(Post 1529158)
I don't know whether you fly for a passenger airline, if so, do you ever objectively rate your own airlines service? Do you even know what the competition is providing regarding service?
Why don't you start a new thread entitled "Customer Service: The US pilot's enemy" Then we can discuss my objective ratings of the airlines I have flown on the past five years. American, United, Delta, KLM, Lufthansa, Etihad, Emirates, China Eastern, China Southern, Shenzhen, Philippines Airlines, Cebu Pacific, Dragon Air, Cathay Pacific, KAL, Air Astana, Hainan Airlines, and Egypt Air. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1528997)
You are ignoring the effect of governance. Airlines and air power thrived for a near century in the United States because no oher Country threw as much money, infastructure and favorable legislation at that fledgling industry. Air Mail Contracts, airport building, the CAB protecting routes, the transfer of technologies and manufacturing from the military to civillian use, military contracts which paid for the development of the first jet airliners. ...
Now that situation is nearly reversed. Instead of the latest tanker being a design for the next wonder jet, the next tanker is a warmed over 1970's 767. Aviation is the most taxed industry in the United States, even above Tobacco & Alcohol. The Middle East sees aviation as a sustainable business. They are claiming rights to other Nation's infastructure in a unilateral fashion. They are very activly lobbying the US Government and they are willing to spend a lot more to influence our Legislators and Regulators than we who mostly figure if we elect them, why should we have to then buy them? Emirates, Etihad and Saudia are not ailines founded by deep South cropdusters, an airplane builder from Seattle, or an Air Mail contract. They are effectively soveriegn wealth funds with the full backing and support of their government. Carriers in the US once enjoyed that support, but no more. That kind of power is decisive in an industry this competitive. The point of this thread is that Boeing is no friend to the US Airline pilot. It is allied it's powerful network of Agents to provide unfair and unequal access to the US market if doing so facilitates aircraft sales. The Dubair Air Show was a grand stage for economic extortion. Has anyone really looked at whether the ME can absorb so much capacity? Are airlines threatening the cancellation of orders that they're going to cancel anyway? |
Originally Posted by CAAC ATP
(Post 1529074)
Fair is a stupid word. It is only an opinion and never fact.
Let me get this straight, if US pilots lobby the government and support ALPA's Capitol Hill influence by donating to ALPA PAC they are crying "life isn't fair"? In that case, I guess living within the United State's system of government isn't fair to you. Everyone with a dog in this fight is a business and working with the system we have to gain advantage. Emirates, Boeing, ALPA PAC, and Delta will lobby with money. The UAE will try to influence with money and threats. Hopefully, American (citizens) pilots will lobby through their voice and vote. This argument has nothing to do with customer service. I guess Carl already beat that dead horse. This is a trade and protectionism issue. This is an issue in which the US Government needs to take a hard look at what benefit the US Airline industry brings to this country and what national security issues may result in the weakening of our industry. What does Emirates offer the United States in trade? Perhaps they can feed a domestic operation, but at what cost? Will the UAE in turn offer 5th freedom rights to United and Delta through Dubai or Abu Dhabi? I think not. What are they using as leverage then? They are using their huge orders of Boeings and Airbus and threats to peddle their wares. I see Emirates and Etihad offering a positive bump to our manufacturing sector which is very short term compared to the negative impact they will have on our Airline industry if we open our skies to them. I would go so far to say the negative impact would be permanent rather than long term. |
Originally Posted by CAAC ATP
(Post 1529434)
I do fly for a passenger airline and I'll let the passengers and profitability of said airline speak for itself. How this has anything to do with 5th freedom rights and trade agreements is lost on me.
Why don't you start a new thread entitled "Customer Service: The US pilot's enemy" Then we can discuss my objective ratings of the airlines I have flown on the past five years. American, United, Delta, KLM, Lufthansa, Etihad, Emirates, China Eastern, China Southern, Shenzhen, Philippines Airlines, Cebu Pacific, Dragon Air, Cathay Pacific, KAL, Air Astana, Hainan Airlines, and Egypt Air. I agree our customer service does not compare but guess what - under current conditions/laws it never will: Airlines operating under US anti-discrimination laws will never be able to match airlines that are allowed to discriminate in hiring and business practice. How do you match the service that Young, hot, single, happy (some feel like they won the lottery by getting a job) overseas Flight Attendants provide, with our Flight attendants? Answer - You can not. How do you financially compete with state run subsidized airlines when our airlines are very heavily taxed? Answer - You can not. So while I agree with you that the domestic airlines customer service is lacking when compared with international carriers - what should the US Carriers do about it? It is a complex issue that has no easy solution. How do you think it would go over if the US tried to tell International airlines that in order to operate in the US they would have to meet US anti-discrimination laws. This would not go over too well, but it would be interesting to see how their vaunted customer service you speak of would hold up? Scoop |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 1529188)
As to their customer base: within 9 hours of flight time is about 300 million potential middle class flyers, probably more like 500 million. So, the theory is they'll just stay home? Have you actually visited India, Africa and the ME? Flown on EK or QR? Good point GF, but you're numbers are still way too low. India alone has a middle class of over 300 million and growing. Europe would add at least another 300 million; China at least 300 million and growing; Japan and the rest of Asia another couple hundred million; and Africa at least 100 million. That's over 1 billion people of middle class status and higher. As I have said in previous posts. EK, EY, and QR are using just over 10% of their capacity on U.S. routes. This paranoia is somewhat unfounded. The Middle East carriers have plenty of business outside of North America routes to justify their growth. In the last few years alone EK has added Luanda, Durban, Lusaka, Harare, Abidjan, Conakry, Warsaw, Saigon ( yea Ho Chi Minh City I know ), Clark AFB ( well used to be ), Phuket, Adelaide, St. Petersburg, Dublin, Lyon, Geneva, Madrid, Barcelona, Lisbon, and a few others not in the States. That growth is for those over 1 billion people of middle class status and higher who want to travel internationally. That all said, the other roughly 4 billion who are not middle class status and higher also travel and the Gulf carriers provide service for them as well. The expatriate workforce of the Middle East is another huge source of revenue for these carriers. They travel home on average once per year and their are millions of them in the Middle East; Philippinos, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Indonesians, etc. What was the population of the United States again? Typhoonpilot |
Scoop,
Just to counter your arguments, I've got no dog in this hunt other than being a Yankee. How do you financially compete with state run subsidized airlines when our airlines are very heavily taxed? As to anti-discrimination laws and don't dismiss the union contracts that go with them; foreigners would react exactly as we would if they said, "get rid of those rules that are hobbling you". In my memory, F/As left upon pregnancy or age 32-ish. Does 44 years of experience really make a flight attendant better? As to fares, I just compared business class fares, JFK-DXB(a flight I just did on EK) DL $4052 vs EK $9256. Hardly indicative of EK buying market share thru subsidies. And the EK flights were non-stop A380, much pleasanter ride. Thanks for the correction on numbers, Typhoon. GF |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 1529448)
I agree our customer service does not compare but guess what - under current conditions/laws it never will:
So while I agree with you that the domestic airlines customer service is lacking when compared with international carriers - what should the US Carriers do about it? It is a complex issue that has no easy solution. Scoop No easy solutions, and I would agree the playing field is not level. While the industry must address the political aspects to this uneven playing field, it cannot ignore the reality that creates this fairly substanual difference in product. Just as in any industry, aviation has got to innovate and improve, or others will run over those who are complacent. Could Emirates come in and steal business from US airlines in our own backyard? I am seriously doubtful, dispute the Chicken Little's that populate these boards. What I do see is a group who has serious doubts about (their) airlines ability to compete, evidence by the near hysteria over ME competitors that have yet to really enter the arena that US carriers consider their turf. |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 1529448)
How do you match the service that Young, hot, single, happy (some feel like they won the lottery by getting a job) overseas Flight Attendants provide, with our Flight attendants? Scoop
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 1529489)
Scoop,
As to anti-discrimination laws and don't dismiss the union contracts that go with them; foreigners would react exactly as we would if they said, "get rid of those rules that are hobbling you". In my memory, F/As left upon pregnancy or age 32-ish. Does 44 years of experience really make a flight attendant better? GF Hint: Management needs to grow a pair ;) |
Originally Posted by dckozak
(Post 1529499)
And this, Gentleman IS the 800 pound gorilla that no one dares to speak of, or believes there is a solution to.
Hint: Management needs to grow a pair ;) |
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