Delta MEC is hitting this hard!

NAI is an all EU entity employing mainly pilots from the EU with EASA airmen certificates. A base pay of 9,000 Euro or $12,240 USD, plus 1,000 monthly per Diem along with health insurance, may not be the highest paying salaries, but is not what I would call the worst wages given the fact that not every pilot unemployed pilot will be hired by BA, AF, LH, or KLM.

True, I would agree the lower paid are going to be the cabin crew from Thailand. Curious, in the history of Delta Airlines, has the DAL MEC threatened job action, in support and in solidarity, for higher wages or conditions for their cabin crew?

Of greater of concern over NAI, should be the proliferation of M/E carriers such as EK operating between US from European locations, rather than three or four daily NAI flights between the EU and the US.

What about a Low cost carrier, Air Berlin? Did you know that that about Etihad owns about 29 percent of Air Berlin? EY enjoys 100% of the revenues derived from their operations along with 29% of the revenue from Air Berlin's.

Here's a fare quote I got from both DAL and Air Berlin this morning. With a travel date on the 19th of March one-way from MIA to BER Air Berlin $800... Delta $2,438.

BER to MIA $759.62 on Air Berlin.... Delta $5245

Delta Website

Delta - Book a flight

10:05AM 9:44PM Economy (Y)
€3,081.58
Select total price Details
Equipped with Economy Comfort Business (C) + Others
€3,688.58
Select total price

Air Berlin Website

http://www.airberlin.com/en-US/booki...et_lid=6760031

72-hour fare guarantee!

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Just another note, it is not uncommon for carriers in the EU to have their offices in one country, their AOC in another, with the aircraft registered in a third country. Why? tax purposes. Same reasons why companies in the US create corporations in Delaware? Or labor oriented companies establish their addresses in right to work states.

It is of great concern to us because that is roughly HALF of what our 787 payrates are. If this model gets off the ground, it is not inconceivable that in 10-20 years there won't be any international flying done by US carriers. If the model works for NAI, who's next Ryan, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar? They're all coming after us. How much easier will it be for them if they can cherry pick the most advantageous rules from around the globe?

You mention that it is not uncommon for European airlines to have their AOC issued a different country than their home. Can you provide examples? Is there a case where the carrier does not even fly to the issuing country? How well can Ireland oversee NAI's operation if they never touchdown on Irish soil? As Donatelli puts it in the video, it is "flag of convenience" plain and simple.

This is NOT good for U.S. pilots - or other airline industry employees. How much do you think NAI-style airlines are going to pay their U.S. based rampers? Gate Agents? Flight Attendants? The whole thing erodes the industry even further. I respect that you have a different vantage point having done ex-pat flying, but I don't think that means this is something we shouldn't be worried about.

Have you signed the petition?

You just proved my point!

On March 19th Delta DOESN'T FLY TO BERLIN!!! It's a codeshare! ZERO US pilot jobs!

If NAI is successful all US flag operations will go to forgein carriers! And those pilots flying at BA AF KLM & LH will be unemployed with their US counterparts!

What would be really interesting and useful in this thread is a list of foreign airlines and their small widebody ( B787, A330, B767 ) pay rates.

If the benchmark for protectionism is set at pilot pay under $15,000 month I think ALPA will need to blacklist a whole bunch more airlines that fly to the USA.

Do the U.S. majors not compete against Latin and South American carriers flying to that region of the world? How are the pay differentials between U.S. carriers and the ones from there?

How much did/does AA pay their Buenos Aires based flight attendants? How much do Aeroflot flight attendants make?

ALPA's arguments are laughable in most government circles.

It would be better to spend time figuring out how to compete against foreign carriers than to attempt protectionism as a strategy.


Typhoonpilot

Uh. Yeah Big Guns:rolleyes:

You got the big picture.:rolleyes:

This is NOT just about pay rates... Pay rates only play a very very small part. This is about using a shell game to circumvent international law, flag rule, ownership laws, labor law, cabatge and open skies agreements.

If successful this could end all the established international flying in the USA and Europe!!! (and domestic flying too; if flag rules are applied like in maritime industry today)

Check out these links:

Norwegian Air International Scheme

http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?f...8231&mid=24026

http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?f...8231&mid=24026

#denyNAI | Tell Obama to deny Norwegian Air Shuttle's application to fly into the US

The Maritime Industry didn't see it coming... The airline industry has history on its side, we can learn from their mistakes!!!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! HELP US NOT TO REPEAT HISTORY!!!

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it..." --George Santayana

"In history, a great volume is unrolled for our instruction, drawing the materials of future wisdom from the past errors and infirmities of mankind." --Edmund Burke

Would you all please stop the chicken little chant of cabotage. If and when something even remotely starts to look like cabotage, then we can talk. There is no suggestion here that NAI or any other foreign carrier is going to be given rights to fly passengers between domestic destinations.

The only real question here is whether what NAI is doing REALLY circumvents the labor protection provisions of the Open Skies Treaty with the EU. The rest of ALPA's rant concerning "flags of convenience" is expressly provided for in the treaty that both sides signed. The IAA is an EASA regulator - not exactly some tin-pot, third-world aviation administration. I would be very surprised if they don't provide a comparable level of oversight to the FAA. An IAA inspector ramp checking an NAI airplane in LGW is no different from an FAA inspector based in Chicago checking a plane in DCA.

Regarding the US maritime industry, do a little research. It was a complicated issue that in addition to "flags of conveniences", also had periods of intense protectionism of the industry and bloated and unrealistic union work rules. I actually think that if our government gives in to the protectionist demands of ALPA and the legacy carriers, it will do more lasting damage to the industry than a small, creative European carrier.

True, as of now... However, look here at the US DOT List of US_Flag_Carriers. You will see MAERSK (Denmark actually pictured on the USDOT website) and HAPAG-LLOYD (Germany) are listed as US FLAG CARRIERS allowing them access to DOMESTIC SHIPPING (cabotage to us). HAPAG-LLOYD has 152 ships in its fleet, but only 5 of its smallest ships, and 1 charter vessel, are registered in the USA. Less than 4% of the fleet and Less than 1% of the total tonnage, makes them a US FLAG CARRIER and now they have access to domestic shipping!!! See where this could and WILL lead? In 1960 there were 100,000 U.S. Seafarers in 2010 less than 2,500.

Wrong! Norway is NOT part of the EU therefor NAI can not access EU Open Skies. To get around this they put $46 Million (a pretty small amount IMO to bribe a gov't) in a bank in Ireland and 5 employees in an office in Dublin. So the Irish gov't gives them a certificate, now they can access EU Open Skies. Sounds pretty convenient to me! How will the Irish Aviation Authority provide operational oversight to an airline that dosn't even fly to Ireland? Why not use Norway? This is a lot more than your example of IAA "ramp checking" a plane, or an FAA inspector from Chicago inspecting in DCA! This is flag of convenience!!


Do you think it is just a coincidence that he is a 20+year shipping/oil industry lawyer? You use "flags of convenience" as if it is a hypothetical. Well read this excerpt from The Economist Here come the Vikings about Bjørn Kjos' plans for NAI.

Not only government circles, but amongst my fellow colleagues who have chosen to opt for far less complicated and non intra company political influenced careers overseas. Oh and the $$$$? Far better too.

Most of the former chaps in my age group who paid their due over the years, who are now flying overseas reminisce how ALPA compares to other unions in Euroland.

Is the fight about cabin crew salaries? Or the fact there will be low cost sears available between Euroland and the US? Some chap was unable to grasp the concept of the example I illustrated above.

Differences in air fare of a carrier currently operating between the US and Europe, on an established route, as illustrated on each airline's website. Why would anyone of sound mind pay $4,000 for a crappy coach seat when they can get the same seat with better service for $800? Where are the protests? Where is all the chest beating by ALPA on this?

I made the mistake of typing that NAI was a true EU carrier. However, they are taking advantage of economical treaties between Norway and Ireland.

At the end of the day, it looks like the issue revolves around two issues, low pay for cabin crew and cheap fares which are alread out there.

Still no response on ALPA rallying on behalf of cabin crew for better conditions and better pay. By setting up shop in Ireland is no different than any US entity setting up shop in a "Right to Work State" as a amechanism certain work rules or Delaware to avoid certain taxes.

You are missing the big picture BigGuns. I'm illustrating the economics. By coincidence 29 percent of Air Berlin, a German carrier is owned by Etihad, another foreign carrier that everyone feels threatened by.

It does not matter who does the flying. It's on the Delta website. The passenger's money is paid to Delta. How the money is divided up is behind the scenes.

Now BigGuns, what is your position on Delta taking money from a US passenger and putting them on a foreign carrier? For that matter where are the "information Videos" from ALPA and MECs? Isn't that the same thing as taking flying away from US carriers?

IMO ALPA is grasping at loose straws trying to garner lost respect amongst its waning membership over an issue which tantamount to a flea bite on an elephant's a$$. And what for? Flight attendant pay fot those employed in Thailand.

I would think ALPA and the MEC would place emphasis for repayments to the employees of Delta for the concessions made after 9/11. After all the prophits were quite handsome.

This article came today in the Wall Street Journal. Now, in addition to Abu Dhabi, we have to be concerned about Doha and Qatari Airways.
----------------
Qatar in Talks Over U.S. 'Preclearance' Customs Facility

By RORY JONES

Updated March 1, 2014 9:09 a.m. ET

A 787 Dreamliner owned by Qatar Airways stands on display at the Singapore Airshow in February. The new airport serving Qatar's capital, Doha, is in talks for a U.S. 'preclearance' customs facility. Bloomberg News

Qatar is the latest Persian Gulf country to apply for a controversial U.S. "preclearance" customs post, a development that could offer the region's government-owned carriers an advantage over other airlines.

Doha's new international airport, which is expected to open later this year, is in talks with U.S. authorities over such a post, according to Akbar Al Baker, the chief executive of Qatar Airways.

A similar U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility that opened in Abu Dhabi earlier this year led to an uproar among U.S. pilot associations, which claim such posts would give Gulf carriers an unfair advantage over peers. The facility allows passengers to go through U.S. customs before boarding their flight and thus bypass the process after arriving in the U.S.

"This will enhance our product as we are growing in the United States," Mr. Al Baker told reporters Saturday.

The growth of the Gulf region's three biggest carriers--Qatar, Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways--has irked some European and U.S. carriers, which have complained the Gulf airlines are funded by deep-pocketed governments that subsidize their cost base.

The Air Line Pilots Association--the largest pilot union in the U.S., representing some 50,000 pilots--has objected to the Abu Dhabi facility, previously calling it an "example of bad U.S. government policy."

Abu Dhabi, whose preclearance facility opened in January, was the 15th airport to secure such a post. Ireland's Shannon Airport was the first outside North America to open one of the U.S. facilities. Similar posts exist in Dublin and several Canadian airports as well as in Bermuda, Aruba and the Bahamas.

Etihad, which is based at the Abu Dhabi airport, plans to increase flights to New York this month and will launch service to Los Angeles in June and Dallas-Fort Worth in December. No U.S. carriers currently fly to Abu Dhabi, which is paying for about 85% of its preclearance facility.

The two other large Gulf carriers are also aggressively expanding in the U.S. market. Qatar plans to start service to Miami, Philadelphia and Dallas-Fort Worth this year, in addition to its routes to New York, Washington, Chicago and Houston. Emirates said last week it intends to begin service to Chicago and will start flights to Boston from Dubai this month.

Dubai, which operates the world's second-busiest airport for international traffic, has also expressed an interest in setting up a preclearance facility.

Write to Rory Jones at [email protected]

Don't know if they are still in business, but when I was living in Dublin, a friend of mine was based there flying tourists on EI registered aircraft with a UK OAC from an Austrian based tour company.

No... what for. US carriers, though code sharing, a form of outsourcing have been doing what NAI wants to do for years. What's the difference. You have foreign carriers form South America and Chinapaying their pilots low wages compared US carriers. Where's the petition against them?

Qatar has been unsuccessful in attempting to secure a preclearance facility for the past five years. The new airport, already 3+ years past its' planned opening date, may have the required facilities to accommodate said facility. Then again, maybe not.

Al Udeid air base, located just west of Doha, is home to a large number of US forces. UAL offers daily service between DOH and IAD.

The new US destinations planned by QR are a direct result of its' participation in the One World Alliance.

No, I did not sign the petition.

Yep, we should feel threatened. They are a state run airline not subject to the free market. They operate TAX FREE. Buy their planes with money that was borrowed at below market rates. They also get their fuel at deeply subsidized rates. US and European carriers operating in the free market can not compete with that. Just like you can not compete with a cheater. Look what they have done to Qantas!

Section 1 of Delta's Pilot Working agreement sets all the terms and conditions of Delta's code-share agreements. It requires approval by ALPA. It also limits the amount of flying and requires certain ratios to be met in the amount of code shares and joint ventures that Delta enters into. So at least Delta Pilots have a voice in the matter and agree to it!

IMO you are trying to justify the choices you made in your career, so that you are able to sleep at night!!

I don't know what stage of your career you are in other than a F/O with DAL. I entered the business a couple of years after Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978.

The carrier I was with in 1991 wanted the employees to take pay cuts across the board. Now take note... management did not take any cuts in pay, benefits, or bonuses for that matter. Our competency is demonstrated every day we put our uniforms on. Not to mention three times a year, twice in the simulator, and once in the aircraft. Management, is highly rewarded by demonstrating incompetency by making decisions which ultimately lead the carrier into bankruptcy.

I made the choice to never work for an airline that would not provide adequate compensation, provide benefits and perks based on the services I have provided, and not treat it's pilots with disrespect.

A friend and colleague of mine told me about contract flying and instructing overseas. Back in the day, my experience overseas was to the crew hotel and a bit of a stroll around town, then back on the jet. I never thought of living overseas in an apartment paid by the carrier and the money, benefits and perks? Not bad either.

IMO salaries must be commensurate with skill sets upon the commencement of employment. Generally, one's skill sets increase in value to the company. That said compensation and benefits need to increase accordingly.

The choices I made were so I could continue to put food on the table, secure college education tuition at top universities for my children, pay the mortgage, and guaranty a fund for retirement which, all which was stripped by most US carriers... recommended by the MECs industry wide with the exception of a few carriers.

That said BigGuns, my entire family, myself, and now extended family sleep very well.

We all know petitions can be signed by pilots. Pilots can perform their information walks at the airports. MECs can send video messages via You Tube. But at the end of the day... what is accomplished? Nothing.

It's up to the airline's officers, if and when directed by the Board of Directors, to engage the services of their lobbyists to take their representatives out for that three martini lunch.

Wishing you all the best in your endeavors, in your career progression. Happy flying!

captjns

Bottom line is ... We can learn from all the crap you suffered though. We can take a stand and stop the self serviceing pilot mentality. We have the chance to make a stand and stop this deterioration of the world wide industry, but it takes us all!

Study the past if you would define the future. -Confucius

Call it chicken little if you want, but once it makes it into the halls of congress, it will be virtually assured. By then, it is too late. No, IMHO, Lee Moak should go to congress right now and let them know that if cabotage is even considered on capitol hill that nary a wheel at ALPA carriers will turn. We like to talk of leverage, well this is leverage, and it is indisputable.

Lech Walesa went to prison over this kind of thing. He is also a national hero. Just sayin'

Lee=Lech? Maybe not, but the failure to see the danger to labor everywhere
(not just the US) is just amazing. Free market is only fair if the different entities compete under similar rules. It can be argued that my company would benefit (short term) by the harm caused to the legacies by NAI. The longterm danger is why I signed.

Prison? Threats to stop turning wheels? Not gonna happen.
There's no way Lee Moak is going to take any real action. ALPA is way too risk averse.

There is something ALPA could do right now if it was really serious about all these foreign airlines being an existential threat to US companies and US pilot jobs.

Start denying their pilots the jumpseat.

That might actually have some effect. But ALPA won't even consider such a simple thing as that. They don't like Norwegian or the Gulf carriers but they aren't going to do anything but send e-mails and start petitions. Moak will never take any actual concrete actions. Its just not important enough to risk the flow of cash into Herndon in any way.

If this is so important, then what the he|| are we waiting for?
Start a jumpseat war. That might actually effect operations for some of these carriers.

Who exactly would you have us deny? Pilots from which carriers? I don't remember the last time an Emirates or Etihad pilot asked for the jumpseat?

Do you mean any non-ALPA pilot? While I think we would all be better off if every U.S. pilot was an ALPA member, I don't think this would be a constructive way to accomplish anything. Exclusionary tactics would just serve to further drive the wedge. Meanwhile, it would suddenly become a helluva lot harder for some of our commuters to get to work. I don't commute anymore, but nobody wants that.

What we really need is a national airline policy - a commitment from our OWN government to further the interests of U.S. commercial aviation. Call it protectionism if you want; I'm fine with that! If our own government won't go to bat for us, who the hell will? Until this happens, we are all just slowly circling the drain.

You're right. Too radical. Too risky.
Wouldn't want to drive any wedges.

A petition on the Internet signed by a bunch of pilots and their wives. That'll stop 'em.

I didn't realize pilots employed by foreign carriers could jumpseat on US carriers.

Now I am completely confused!?!?!

rotflmao!!!!!!

Ha! good point.
Guess we'll need IFALPA to get behind us for this little protest.

I fly back and forth ATL-DXB every month, in...5+ years, I have never seen or even heard of any pilot working for any of the middle east carriers requesting a jumpseat to get to work.

They get passes on their own carriers, right? I think a jumpseat war would have zero impact, not to mention it would be punishing the wrong people.

Petitions initiated by pilots is a start. But the airlines themselves need to get involved, that is, if they feel threatened, and code share agreements won't be threatened.

That said where's the incentive for the DOT to deny NAI's reqeust?

They can't ...

They are not in CASS so cannot physically jumpseat in the cockpit observer seat. But there are airlines here in the USA that take foreign airline pilots in the back if a passenger cabin seat is open. They fill out a jumpseat form.

Anyone know how long the DOT typically evaluates these applications? Thoughts on when we can expect to hear a decision?

there are over 20,000 signatures so far....hardly just a bunch of pilots and their wives.

I think Check's point was that the petition has been up for quite awhile, and there should be a lot more signatures. Not surprising since participation in local LEC elections is pathetic.

Pathetic .. or there are a lot of ALPA pilots who don't give a @?!&!? about mainline because they feel they are left behind.

Unfortunately, this cant be stopped. We have moved into globalism the past 25-35 years. Most industries are in a global market now... Jobs outsourced thanks to NAFTA, GAT... The airlines are one of the last few industries not globalized and it will be next. Globalism for the US is bad as we can see everything has been outsourced and our country being de-industrialized, jobs cheaper overseas. Anybody who thinks this can be stopped and that congress and our government work for the people are naive. Our Gov and Congress works for the money powers and there are much more powerful people that want this done. Sad to say it, but this will be the 1st step towards open skies, i saw this coming years ago. All your future plans should be a plan B! I have had my plan B for a few years, pretty soon I wont need this job. It will be more like a hobby for me and my main income will come from my other business. Get your Plan B ready! Sorry to be a pessimistic, but this is the reality of our future in the global markets.

So far I've read posts of hopes of ALPA hoping to save the day and save the jobs. Has any of the MECs approached management within their companies? If so... response if any? the edging of M/E carriers along with the recent application by NAI is far greater than ALPA's capability.

I am confused :confused: , I just saw a NAI 787 at the gate in LAX.

TEN

ALPA Couldn't/wouldn't/didn't save their own members pensions. How successful do you think they are going to be in this endeavor.

Hint: does AUH have a pre-clearance facility?;)

Duplicate posting

This is copied right off the Delta Employee Homepage page for ALL employees to see and act!

Help Protect Delta's trans-Atlantic Service
February 12, 2014

Employees are asked to sign a petition to voice their opposition to Norwegian Air International (NAI)’s plan to launch service to the United States while evading the regulation and labor rules other carriers follow. ALPA has set up a site where airline employees and customers can sign a petition asking the DOT to block NAI’s unfair plan. It’s critical that the voices of Delta’s employees be heard on this important issue.*

Please send a message to the DOT to deny NAI’s application to fly into the United States by going to *#denyNAI | Tell Obama to deny Norwegian Air Shuttle's application to fly into the US

Here’s some more background on the issue:

Norwegian Air International is being formed to unfairly exploit the Open Skies agreement between the U.S. and the E.U.*Though calling itself “Norwegian” and being controlled by Norwegian nationals, the carrier is being set up in Ireland to avoid the labor rules and regulations of its home country.*This is not what was envisioned by the Open Skies deal with the E.U., which clearly states that it is “not intended to undermine labor standards or the labor-related rights” of any country.

Although planning to operate from Norway and the U.K., NAI is trying to establish itself as an Irish airline -- which would allow it to use contract crews from an employment service in Singapore -- avoiding Norway’s labor laws and work permit requirements. NAI’s scheme would allow it drive down labor rates and work rules, giving it an unfair advantage in the transatlantic marketplace on routes that compete with Delta and other U.S. carriers, such as New York-London.***

This abuse of the Open Skies agreement would be bad for Delta’s employees, customers and investors. With the best employees in the business, we can compete with any airline in the world, but not if the playing field is tilted in their favor. That’s why we need your help to send a message to the DOT to deny NAI’s application to fly into the United States.