JetBlue Pilots already have below average compensation and benefits and have no protections.



Fun fact for you.........................



The Airline Pilot profession is a unionized profession!


Wall St is Wall St. That's just the way it is.


How about we push the whole Union/ Non union issue aside?



MGMT Don't want a union. Fine. Why didn't they just compensate the Pilots competitively?


It would have prevented the union drive!


They could have. But, they decided not to.


The question is.........................


WHY???



T

The legacies have a lot of regional jets flying around to supplement their pay. JetBlue gets to have all flying in house, that is much better than having a union. You have to look at the entire compensation package of the legacy system, and when you do, you will find their compensation is actually lower. Your expectations of what ALPA is going to get you is way out of whack, you can expect your current contract as your new CBA, with a 2% union due pay cut.

Spirit had to strike 1 week. One. Uno. Mia. Ein. Un.

They got nearly everything they asked for, which was reasonable for the airline's current and forecast performance. If Spirit continues to grow, I'd expect that contract to continue to improve.

Wall Street punish for going union? What are they going to do, drive the stock back down to what it was worth 10 years ago? Bring it on! (but please tell them to wait until after the June stock buy).

Lies and misinformation

That legacies make money off low wages for half their flying?

Or that a first contract would likely be exactly what we currently have minus 1.9%?

Nice try!


There is a wealth of independent unbiased analysis that PROVES JetBlue Pilots are undercompensated!


We have the data!


It's a little late in the day to be trying to refute the comparisons provided by our subject matter experts/ labor economists.


T

More lies and misinformation from the blue juicing crowd.

This is where your shortsightedness comes into play. JetBlue "gets" to have all flying in house...until they decide not to. We have a lot to learn from pilot groups of the past, and one of them is to protect scope. JetBlue flights/aircraft need to be flown by JetBlue pilots. This is just one aspect of the job security that people are talking about. There is only one way to protect scope, and that is a CBA and to learn from the mistakes of UAL's, DAL's, and AA's.

But, JB Management assert that JetBlue Pilots have "Culturally based scope".

Embarrassing isn't it?


What's even more embarrassing is that some JB Pilots actually believe it.


Could you imagine legacy Pilots accepting culturally based scope?


Some people should just stick to flying clubs and leisure flying. This is supposed to be a career.


T

No to start a **** storm, but after at republic , I never want to work at a place with a union again. They do nothing but take money and act like they are helping me out. they just **** me over. Not as bad as republic , but I'm not being forced to pay republic hundred. It's horrible what little I make from one the other takes. One reason I want to go there is because of no union. **** ibt alpa

I made no statement. I only asked what snarge was saying was lies and misinformation. Thanks for your input though.

JetBlue does something different here.

First, they have non-line pilots flying non-Pax jets. Send a E190 to mx? Flown by part 91 pilots. Pick up a new 321? Part 91 pilots (and some Mgmt types).

But you're right. Little hops to BTV, MHT, and ROC get covered by mainline jets. Instead, we just farm out all of our 8-14hr pond crossings to foreign carriers while continually dangling wide body buys in the rumor mill. I got told directly by the OSC "CP" last year that we'd definitely have 330s in a couple years, and he acted like he thought I believed him. Of course that's the same guy who told me the new PEA would be absolutely amazing, especially for new hires. Kudos to him, as he's one of the people who convinced me to send in my card.

I don't expect the first CBA will be world-crushing, but your expectation that it will be current PEA - dues indicates you might want to call in sick to avoid the next pee test for at least 23 days.

I guess those guys at MIT and BDO just have no clue what they're talking about.

Can you point me in the direction of the data that shows jetblues compensation package for its pilots is the one of the best in the industry? Please.

Cause last time I checked jetblue pilots are behind the "legacy" (the LCC model too...) total compensation package in afew areas like:

Hourly rate
401k contributions
Profit sharing
Vacation allocation
Vacation distribution
Work rules
Trip and duty rigs
Health care

Just off the top of my head. So respectfully sir, your statement is horse manure.

If ALPA is voted in at jetblue would you turn down a job offer?

Concessions for lowering stock?? My stock options are already worthless. Our stock is already underperforms every other stock in our "peer set". That's due to lousy management, not anything any of us are doing. If we had more adept people running our airline, things might be different.

Stock prices are about number 1,342 on my list of priorities. Yes they are important, but not more important than having a real contract, reasonable healthcare, safer work rules, etc.

We have been promised "average" for years. Sadly, Spirit makes up the lower end of the group (hourly rate-wise. I have no idea what their benefits are like). I hope they get a better contract next time. These promises get broken time after time. I've had enough of it. It's time to negotiate vice collaborate - which in jetblue terms means, "Here's your PEA, take it or leave it."

Lastly, regardless what are stock price is now or a month from now, some day we will be bought, merged or will acquire another airline. That's just business. Having virtually NO PROTECTIONS for our careers in our current set of documents is unacceptable. Our Pilot Protection Agreement is a joke.

The only thing ALPA will get you is great seniority protection in a merger if you are the acquired carrier, everything else is a pipe dream.

Healthcare will be ObamaCare in a few years, no reason to waste negotiating capital on that.

JB'ers..

Don't bother with Mesabah. he has his own agenda and likes to carry his opinions around masqueraded as fact.

You have actual facts, you have actual DR experience, you have actual PVC results. Make your own choice.

You're hired!! ;)

Serious question. Do you have apps in at UAL, DAL, SWA, AA, Spirit, Allegiant, or Alaska (did I leave anyone out)? Because if you do, you're a hypocrite and I then submit to you, why is it acceptable for those pilots (and you if you were to get hired at any of the above) to advance/secure their/your career via a union, but we shouldn't?

Oh and I'd also bet a paycheck that if you didn't have a union BB would make sure life and pay at republic would be even worse than it is now.

Your opinion might be more respected if you proofread your post first. I'm no English major, but that is painful to read.

Your opinion, however legitimate, is apples to oranges in comparing what Republic is going through to what JetBlue is. We are NOT a regional airline. Regionals are at the mercy of the Major that they feed. It makes negotiations much more difficult. You are also IBT not ALPA.

Good luck finding a non union carrier. Maybe you can go to SkyWest. :rolleyes:

Could have a union problem at AA/UsAir too. Always union drama.

American responds in pilots union dispute over seniority | American Airlines | American ...

Perfect example if that were us dave barger and rob mauster would be negotiating yours and mine seniority integration. Are you willing to put your future in the hands of airline execs who have no skin in the game and will be cashing out millions the second the deal is done. Or your fellow pilots who have just as much invested negotiating for you. The choice will be yours starting tomorrow.

And we have a crap load of DR drama! :rolleyes:

-=-= Outsider here. So don't kill me. I'm just curious here. =-=-

Why would you want to unionize? Why be tied to the Railways Labor Act restrictions?

1. You can't strike (yes, technically you can but let's face it, it takes a miracle that happens 0.1% of the time)
2. In this day and age, I would think if the pilots want to send a message to management, can't everyone just set up a web site or twitter account or mass e-mail distribution and set up a day and call in sick? Wouldn't that have the same effect? Either way management is going to be ****ed (union or not). I would think you'd get a lot more immediate attention when planes are grounded until demands are met without having the drama of dragging out contract negotiations that could last for years with back and forth bickering.

1. You can still strike, but it has to be proven that management is bargaining unfairly.
2. That's completely illegal.

If you are one of the couple dozen or so guys at JetBlue who absolutely will not vote for ALPA for whatever reason (They somehow wronged you at your Regional airline, you don't want to pay them 1.9% for their Legal, medical, and safety services, etc), please consider the following options:
1) Abstain from voting
2) Write in an In-House union or Teamsters, or whatever other union you want

You do not have to vote "no". If you vote "no", you are voting to remain under the Direct Relationship, which has been continuously failing. If you are one of the guys in this boat that just can't support ALPA, that's fine, just please do NOT support the DR!

Oh, I think JetBlue will be ALPA, nothing I say here matters. It will be funny though, when all of ALPA's campaign promises suddenly turn into managed expectations....."Yeah, well we tried to recapture international scope, but that would get us parked by the NMB, so instead we gave management a carve out.".....

I'm just one vote, but the DR is dead. I'll take my chances with alpa

The DR is absolutely dead. The Pilots of JetBlue have been short changed time and time again while reminded how fortunate they are.
And, there's no third party to blame.


When ALPA arrives, it will be a stark reminder of management's greed and failure to invest in their best assets.


T

What in the world does that have to do with ALPA at Jet blue?

Look. I don't like ALPA. I can't stand the bloated bureaucracy and squishy "leadership."

But I'll take ALPA any day over a management team that has screwed you again and again, and claims it has your best interests at heart. Because that's a lie.

Exactly!!!

None of us here are naïve enough to think that ALPA is going to be the end all, be all and fix all our problems. I'm managing my own expectations. However, the one thing that is absolutely true without a doubt is that the direct relationship DOES...NOT...WORK. It's time to take a different path and build our own representation from the ground up that actually has legal standing.

Agreed.


Who on earth would believe that surrendering 100% control over your career to someone else would be a sound move???


NOTHING could be worse than the Direct Relationship.


NOTHING!


JJ

Who's side are you on dude?

I'm convinced you're a Management plant.


JJ

Hardly. I'm just pointing out the drama involved in a current M&A event. JJ, you're drumming the warrior beat and that's exactly what I fear in a union. Us against them. That's how all the Legacy's flushed themselves down the bankruptcy toilet.

Are you really going to sit here as a jet blue new hire fresh out of the military and parrot jetblue management's party line on why the legacies "flushed themselves down the toilet?"

*clown alert*

p.s. the legacies' pay and benefits are pretty good compared to yours...not too bad for being "flushed down the toilet." maybe you should look into it.

Or maybe jetblue pilots should vote away scope to lower their CASM, then give themselves pay raises on the backs of their regional ALPA "brothers". It worked for Delta, AA, and United's pilots!

Does Alpa wronging you at a regional count differently than if it occurs at a different point in your career? I was pretty happy with some of my local guys, the administration in Virginia stunk. Those in VA will be serving me administratively in the exact same position.
(Was hoping off in-house).

Absolutely! I understand...lots of folks have their own reasons for not wanting ALPA specifically. You can write in any group you want to represent you. I only meant that you shouldn't vote "no" unless you believe in the Direct Relationship, which has let us down repeatedly. We know for a fact that keeping the DR is hopeless and will result in more beatings until morale improves...and morale is at an all time low. If you don't believe in either one, just don't vote.

An in-house would have been a nice option, but unless you can convince 2600 pilots to donate $3000-$5000 each for startup costs, it's a non-starter. Besides, our current management would treat an in-house like they treat the current PVC...by not showing up to scheduled meetings and by throwing away months worth of work. It's unfortunate, but that's where we are.

Ah, the dreaded bankruptcy word.


But, Pilots flying for bankrupt legacy carriers were still better compensated under concessionary contracts than JB Pilots who were flying for a profitable carrier.


Doesn't that make you want to ask Questions?


From a Pilots perspective, bankruptcy wasn't so bad after all.


JJ

Not voting just means that the majority to win is smaller in a union election. The majority could be either side. Telling people not to vote is a stupid tactic.