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Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 3650561)
I'm saying if he thinks he couldn't log it, or if he thinks the regs do not allow him to log it; not if he chose not to on his own. Perhaps that wasn't clear enough. Of course he can log it. If it actually did not count and was not loggable, then it wouldn't be an augmented crew. All of the time counts regardless where he's sitting or what he's doing. Him logging it or not doesn't change the legality of the flight. Not logged is not the same as not loggable.
I re-read it, and while I know what I meant; it isn't what I wrote, so I'll give you that. The short is, he may log as much or as little of the SIC time as he wishes regardless of where he is sitting. Now, lets bump it up a notch. May the FO in the right seat LOG PIC on his/her leg as sole manipulator? Not will it count for future 121 upgrade or interviews, but may it be logged. I personally would never do it, but the answer is yes. That makes no sense. There is only one PIC designed per flight, per 121. That name is on the release. That’s it. Period. Plus the role is filled by a captain in your company on that flight. Furthermore, while the captain is sleeping and you are in the left seat for 4 hours releasing him/her and you are given the responsibility by the captain while sleeping, still doesn’t give you the right to log PIC. Now your SIC time, you are there sharing time in the seat, if you are on a 12 hour flight with 3 pilots, then you are responsible for 8 hours in any seat. 8 hours total. The other 4 hours are resting. Yes, there are always two points that everyone wants to make and another bizarre one of logging PIC. One is how much time is being logged and the other is whether to log it all because you are required for the flight, you’re only required there for duty and flight limitations. If you wanted to log 12 hours total but only 8 hours SIC, then this would have some legitimacy. You could even make a costume column for Augmented crew for example, 4 hours. PIC, omg, why? The sole manipulator is a 61 thing. Just upgrade and log all you want. |
wait a second, people don't log their entire flight as SIC? I thought this was a joke.
Maybe the company can use this argument to get out of proper duty regs and rest requirements! "He only flew 8 hours. He was resting the other 4." Lol. If your flight is 12 hours long, you log 12 hours. |
Originally Posted by Neosporin
(Post 3654710)
Wow, no, if your comment on logging PIC while FO while manipulating the controls is something you feel is legit, then do it on your daily domestic flight as FO.
That makes no sense. There is only one PIC designed per flight, per 121. That name is on the release. That’s it. Period. Plus the role is filled by a captain in your company on that flight. Furthermore, while the captain is sleeping and you are in the left seat for 4 hours releasing him/her and you are given the responsibility by the captain while sleeping, still doesn’t give you the right to log PIC. Now your SIC time, you are there sharing time in the seat, if you are on a 12 hour flight with 3 pilots, then you are responsible for 8 hours in any seat. 8 hours total. The other 4 hours are resting. Yes, there are always two points that everyone wants to make and another bizarre one of logging PIC. One is how much time is being logged and the other is whether to log it all because you are required for the flight, you’re only required there for duty and flight limitations. If you wanted to log 12 hours total but only 8 hours SIC, then this would have some legitimacy. You could even make a costume column for Augmented crew for example, 4 hours. PIC, omg, why? The sole manipulator is a 61 thing. Just upgrade and log all you want. Will airlines count the time, no. However, for purposes of part 91 contract flying to meet insurance minimums the PIC time does count. If it's a 12 hour flight, you log all 12 hours SIC. Can you log less, sure. If you wanted to log PIC for the portion while you were (PF) sole manipulator you could, but I'd highly suggest doing so in a separate column from actual acting PIC. |
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3650870)
while you are quoting and referring to some of the regs correctly in a multi crew operation no one is ever sole manipulator of the controls. I’m not sure if this is defined anywhere specific but even as the pilot flying do you not command gear flaps and any guidance changes while AP is disengaged? Therefore the PM is manipulating the controls and in 2 or more pilot ops no one is the sole manipulator.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...rpretation.pdf |
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 3657639)
asked and answered long ago by FAA Chief counsel's. An SIC as PF (if meeting all the other requirements) is considered the sole manipulator for LOGGING purposes in a multi-crew required aircraft. (The last paragraph on page one is specific) They say in this case that the B757/767 FO may log PIC time in a few ways.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...rpretation.pdf Again in multi crew ops you are never the sole manipulator. Both crew manipulate controls for various purposes as part of the assigned duties to both pilot flying and pilot monitoring. |
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3657686)
Again in multi crew ops you are never the sole manipulator. Both crew manipulate controls for various purposes as part of the assigned duties to both pilot flying and pilot monitoring.
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Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3657686)
Again in multi crew ops you are never the sole manipulator. Both crew manipulate controls for various purposes as part of the assigned duties to both pilot flying and pilot monitoring.
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Don’t confuse him with the truth…
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Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1
(Post 3657686)
Again in multi crew ops you are never the sole manipulator. Both crew manipulate controls for various purposes as part of the assigned duties to both pilot flying and pilot monitoring.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...rpretation.pdf You may not understand that "sole manipulator" is synonymous with the common term pilot flying, when pilot flying (PF) and pilot not-flying (PNF) or pilot monitoring (PM) are given. In some quarters this is referred to as the handling pilot, and non-handling pilot. You appear to take "sole manipulator" too literally, which lacks an understanding of the nature of what it means to be the pilot flying, or sole manipulator of the controls. One can be a sole manipulator when commanding actions, or when utilizing an autopilot. Often the use of a monitoring pilot to fulfill commands, when the pilot flying is flying without automation, is referred to as a "voice-operated autopilot, a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that the pilot flying might operate the airplane with the yoke, rudder pedals, and throttle, or may use the aircraft flight control system, automated flight control system, or may command actions; the pilot flying is still manipulating the controls and operating the airplane. In Murphy (2015), the FAA Chief Legal Counsel specifically addresses the question of whether the use of an autopilot still qualifies one to be "sole manipulator," and the answer is yes: page2image2742170432Your first logbook question asks whether a pilot operating an aircraft "by use ofan autopilot, [may] log that flight time during which the autopilot is operating" as PIC flight time.2 As described above, you note that you are "specifically interested in whether the pilot can be considered to be 'manipulating the controls,' within the context of[§] 61.5l(e)(l)(i)." That section states that a pilot may log PIC time if he or she "is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated . . .." The F A A considers a pilot's use and management of the autopilot to be the equivalent of manipulating the controls, just as one manages other flight control systems, such as trim or a yaw dampener. The autopilot system's sophistication does not affect a pilot's responsibility to manipulate and manage all control systems, including an autopilot, appropriately.Therefore, a pilot may log PIC flight time as the sole manipulator ofthe controls for the time in which he or she engages an autopilot. Now, you seem to believe that if a pilot is manipulating the controls, without an autopilot engaged, and commands an action, the pilot is not the sole manipulator, but again, the FAA Chief Legal Counsel has clearly noted that one may be sole manipulator in transport category aircraft such as the 767 or 707/KC135. Managing an autopilot or managing another pilot is still manipulating the controls, whether one directly controls them by cable, by electronic signals, by hydraulic lines, by computer, or by causing an action by commanding it; if rated, these still qualify one to log PIC. Standard convention in most two pilot cockpits has the pilot flying physically manipulating the controls when automation is not engaged, and commanding or calling for actions to be taken. When automation is engaged, the pilot flying typically operates the automation. You should be familiar with this, and none of this should be any surprise to you. If it is, you're in the wrong place. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 3658422)
Your misguided view is a gross misunderstanding of the regulation, and the definition and interpretation thereof.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...rpretation.pdf You may not understand that "sole manipulator" is synonymous with the common term pilot flying, when pilot flying (PF) and pilot not-flying (PNF) or pilot monitoring (PM) are given. In some quarters this is referred to as the handling pilot, and non-handling pilot. You appear to take "sole manipulator" too literally, which lacks an understanding of the nature of what it means to be the pilot flying, or sole manipulator of the controls. One can be a sole manipulator when commanding actions, or when utilizing an autopilot. Often the use of a monitoring pilot to fulfill commands, when the pilot flying is flying without automation, is referred to as a "voice-operated autopilot, a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that the pilot flying might operate the airplane with the yoke, rudder pedals, and throttle, or may use the aircraft flight control system, automated flight control system, or may command actions; the pilot flying is still manipulating the controls and operating the airplane. In Murphy (2015), the FAA Chief Legal Counsel specifically addresses the question of whether the use of an autopilot still qualifies one to be "sole manipulator," and the answer is yes: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/fi...rpretation.pdf Now, you seem to believe that if a pilot is manipulating the controls, without an autopilot engaged, and commands an action, the pilot is not the sole manipulator, but again, the FAA Chief Legal Counsel has clearly noted that one may be sole manipulator in transport category aircraft such as the 767 or 707/KC135. Managing an autopilot or managing another pilot is still manipulating the controls, whether one directly controls them by cable, by electronic signals, by hydraulic lines, by computer, or by causing an action by commanding it; if rated, these still qualify one to log PIC. Standard convention in most two pilot cockpits has the pilot flying physically manipulating the controls when automation is not engaged, and commanding or calling for actions to be taken. When automation is engaged, the pilot flying typically operates the automation. You should be familiar with this, and none of this should be any surprise to you. If it is, you're in the wrong place. also, anyone who logs PIC while not signing for the aircraft is doing it wrong in my opinion as well. furthermore, an argument for logging all time as SIC or total time, would be that the hours flown go towards your block limitations as well for 117. That said logging SIC time with the purpose of 121 consolidation does require the percentage of time in the seat to be taken. |
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