How to annoy your FO
08-17-2014, 08:39 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by The Juice
Understanding that you dont want to be pushy, some of the "better" options you listed above would be pushy.
I hate to admit it, but I agree with ShyGuy. Part of being a successful is setting the Captain up for success and not putting them in a position to get defensive. Should they get defensive? Nope. Can they? Yep, its human nature.
Old FO technique of asking something as a question for the first time pointing something out works the best for me, versus just coming out and saying "I think you missed this" or "This hasn't been done yet." This is as simple as just holding the checklist when you know its overdue, rather than saying "Hey, we havent done this yet." If he doesnt get the hint with you holding the checklist out, then you can come back with the "standing by on the before takeoff checklist"
If as an FO you see something you think may pose a problem, you can say it, but keep in mind saying "Hey, you're really high, you may need some help getting down" to a Captain is probably not the best method for productive CRM every time. With some guys you're simply going to get the "Oh, I will show you I can make it" response; only worsening the situation and the new corrective action that will be needed.
I hate to admit it, but I agree with ShyGuy. Part of being a successful is setting the Captain up for success and not putting them in a position to get defensive. Should they get defensive? Nope. Can they? Yep, its human nature.
Old FO technique of asking something as a question for the first time pointing something out works the best for me, versus just coming out and saying "I think you missed this" or "This hasn't been done yet." This is as simple as just holding the checklist when you know its overdue, rather than saying "Hey, we havent done this yet." If he doesnt get the hint with you holding the checklist out, then you can come back with the "standing by on the before takeoff checklist"
If as an FO you see something you think may pose a problem, you can say it, but keep in mind saying "Hey, you're really high, you may need some help getting down" to a Captain is probably not the best method for productive CRM every time. With some guys you're simply going to get the "Oh, I will show you I can make it" response; only worsening the situation and the new corrective action that will be needed.
Most of the time when someone prompted me for gear/flaps, it wasn't out of any need- I was at an acceptable speed, on slope, and would be configured by 1000' without any difficulty. The problem is, my FO has his own point at which he likes to extend flaps, and dammit, I wasn't doing it! If it's a matter of preference, we can talk about it on the ground-"Hey, I noticed you waited a little longer than I would to extend the flaps..." we can have a detailed discussion about techniques, maybe we'll both learn something. But if there's a problem in flight, tell me about it immediately. I'm not going to get butthurt over a legitimate issue. I just don't want to be micromanaged on technique.
Last edited by Mephesto; 08-17-2014 at 08:52 AM.
08-17-2014, 11:22 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Left seat on a kite
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
Aren't you guys kinda known for "over estimating" turbulence? 
Ripples in the Starbucks Venti Caramel Macchiato or an inability to work through the USA Today Crossword puzzle deems at least moderate chop.
08-17-2014, 11:44 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Originally Posted by dalad
Well, I once had an FO call moderate as severe.
Young umpire: "I call 'em like I see 'em."
Older umpire: "I call 'em like they are!"
Oldest umpire: "They ain't nothing 'til I call 'em."
08-17-2014, 12:45 PM
#55
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
That reminds me of an old baseball story about three umpires discussing how they called pitches behind the plate:
Young umpire: "I call 'em like I see 'em."
Older umpire: "I call 'em like they are!"
Oldest umpire: "They ain't nothing 'til I call 'em."
Young umpire: "I call 'em like I see 'em."
Older umpire: "I call 'em like they are!"
Oldest umpire: "They ain't nothing 'til I call 'em."
Older MD88 CoPilot: There it goes ...
Oldest MD88 CoPilot: There it goes ... again
08-17-2014, 12:47 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,899
Originally Posted by Mephesto
I just fired off a few quick examples, sure there may be more diplomatic ways of phrasing it, but I stand by my original premise. More often than not, the decision of when to extend gear/flaps is largely rooted in personal preference.
Most of the time when someone prompted me for gear/flaps, it wasn't out of any need- I was at an acceptable speed, on slope, and would be configured by 1000' without any difficulty. The problem is, my FO has his own point at which he likes to extend flaps, and dammit, I wasn't doing it! If it's a matter of preference, we can talk about it on the ground-"Hey, I noticed you waited a little longer than I would to extend the flaps..." we can have a detailed discussion about techniques, maybe we'll both learn something. But if there's a problem in flight, tell me about it immediately. I'm not going to get butthurt over a legitimate issue. I just don't want to be micromanaged on technique.
Most of the time when someone prompted me for gear/flaps, it wasn't out of any need- I was at an acceptable speed, on slope, and would be configured by 1000' without any difficulty. The problem is, my FO has his own point at which he likes to extend flaps, and dammit, I wasn't doing it! If it's a matter of preference, we can talk about it on the ground-"Hey, I noticed you waited a little longer than I would to extend the flaps..." we can have a detailed discussion about techniques, maybe we'll both learn something. But if there's a problem in flight, tell me about it immediately. I'm not going to get butthurt over a legitimate issue. I just don't want to be micromanaged on technique.
08-17-2014, 12:55 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
... just wait until the PF calls for it.
I'm a firm believer in keeping my mouth shut and my hands at my side unless absolutely necessary. That way when I do speak up, it makes more of an impression. I like a high signal-to-noise ratio. The guy that's always prompting eventually just becomes so much static.
08-17-2014, 01:10 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 676
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
I don't do shiit til you're ready. When you are, let me know.
That's out of courtesy to the captain not because I haven't a clue to what's going on.
That's out of courtesy to the captain not because I haven't a clue to what's going on.
Spent 18+ involuntary years as FO at my carrier before upgrading. I like to think I have a little "feel" how the right seat gig' flows.
08-17-2014, 06:00 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: the correct seat
Posts: 1,422
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
I don't do shiit til you're ready. When you are, let me know.
That's out of courtesy to the captain not because I haven't a clue to what's going on.
That's out of courtesy to the captain not because I haven't a clue to what's going on.
(We really need a "like" button).
I'd also wait for the CA to tell me when he/she is ready.
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