SWA or UPS
 

Just got the call from Southwest:D , don't have the type rating yet. Just received the letter from UPS stating I'm in the Pool:D . What would you do?

Just wondering what everyone has to say? I think both companys are great. Just trying to make a good choice, and weigh the pros and cons of both.

Thanks

Do you want to make a lot of money or just a little bit of money. If you want to make a lot, take the UPS job. If you want to just make a little bit of money and fly around the 48 states like a Commuter Airline, I would pick Southwest.

Both are good gigs right now, but SWA has a lot of potential competition, which may actually become competetive someday. UPS is in a much better postion re. job security and long-term success because the economic and logistics barriers to setting up competing global package-delivery operations are absolutely enormous.

YOUR decision
 

Congrats!! Good "problem" to have.

All I would say is, what's right for one person isn't necessarily right for someone else. Make your decision based on what's right for YOU (not what someone on this board thinks you should do).

I had somewhat of a similar situation....hired by SWA, then subsequently offered interview with UPS. Declined the UPS interview knowing SWA was where I really wanted to be. Didn't want to waste their/my time.

Good luck. I know there are many out there that would kill just to have a shot at ONE of these great companies.

A letter stating you are in the UPS pool does not equate to receiving a job offer. Some spend only a few days in the pool while others spend a year or longer. I would continue to pursue SWA until UPS calls you for a drug test/class date. Until then, it is a moot point. Best of luck. Either way, you have a bright future ahead of you!

Sometimes it's wise to take the bird in hand.............

I second this opinion. The flying, work environment and culture is totally different between these two companies. If you have a job offer at Southwest and want to work there I wouldn't turn it down just because you're in the pool at UPS.

The pool wait at UPS could be up to 3 or 4 years theoretically, so I would jump on the Southwest job offer until UPS calls for a class date.

UPS is where you want to hang your hat if you want the most stability of any pilot employer + the ability to make more than anyone else. Unfortunately the work culture suffers, but what place doesn't compared to Southwest?

Hey he didn't say FedEx he said UPS.
But over a long career I do agree freight is where it has and will be for decades. Never have had the ups and downs of the pax airlines, but then neither has SWA (great place by the way)

The way things look now? UPS looks good. I have flown with a guy who left UPS in the early 90's and he is now a CPT (at SWA) living where he wants to. All a question of desire and the inevitalble second guessing we all tend to do. Life style vs. $. Who really knows your individual desires? Then there is that bird in the hand question.;)

Seems to me a lot depends on what type of flying you enjoy (or hate). Also, where do you want to live? If you're already set in a swa domicile, that would be hard to pass up (assuming you could hold it short term, ie bwi/oak/mdw). If you have a long commute, ups gets the advantage due to longer block scheduling of not only trips but reserve. I have talked to a lot of swa pilots (among others) that commute 2 or more legs to work and it really drags them down and negatively affects qol.

I think ups will be worth more bucksin the long run, with greater job security, but the culture at swa is more pilot friendly (from what I've seen and heard). However, if you have any desire to fly intl or widebodies, you should factor that into your equation as well. Flying at ups or fedex is closer to mil flying than any of the pax airlines I think. Sitting the sort drinking coffee while solving the problems of the world (and failing to take notes) reminds me of the ready room atmosphere in the navy.

If I were in your shoes, I would go to swa (yeah, I know the type costs some bucks) and keep an open mind. If and when ups calls you, you can make your final decision then. Like the man said, a bird in the hand......

Good luck and good flying,

Pilot7576

Where do you live??
Do you live in Florida, Southern California, Alaska, or Kentucy. If so, I would say definately UPS.
If you live in Las Vegas, Washington DC, Texas, Chicago, Phoenix, or Northern California, I would say Southwest would maybe be a better choice.


Rickair is right when he said that UPS is a much more stable job. Remember that Southwest has been losing money if you exclude fuel hedges for several of the last quarters. Fuel is an airline's largest expense, and when the price doubles, you might see their balance sheets turn red. Remember that they run a somewhat inefficient point to point route map as opposed to the traditional hub and spoke method. This can be seen by the fact that they have the industry's LOWEST load factor in the vicinity of 70% (as opposed to 85% at most other majors). They also have no lucrative international routes. Now that United and US Air have emerged from bankruptcy as lean, mean, airline machines, and Delta and Northwest will eventually emerge from bankruptcy, Southwest will have a tougher time competing against the powerful legacy airlines as opposed to when they were high cost entities.

Back to UPS, it is hard to start up a cargo airline that can compete with UPS and FedEx because of their massive systems. They can pretty much raise prices as they please to cover costs. An airline like Southwest cannot raise fares without losing market share. And any Joe Shmo can start up an airline like Skybus or Virgin America that fly few routes, but can take market share from Southwest, and charge customers less.

I know I am being a little harsh, but your entire career is dependent upon this choice. All in all, you are in a good position (I wish I was in your predicament). If you live in a UPS domicile, definately go UPS. If you live in a Southwest domicilie, consider Southwest. Otherwise, look at the two companies, and their VERY DIFFERENT industries, and choose which you is the best for you. Personally I would choose UPS.
Good luck with your decision.

Had to make the same decision 12 years ago. FDX or SWA. Went to FDX and never looked back. You won't work nearly as hard at FDX fly more destinations, different aircraft, layover at home or any number of international destinations. No passengers to deal with and you won't be on your third flight attendant wife when you retire. Make more money ect. ect.ect. But you might like SWA good luck, and congrats. Lots of guys and gals would love to be in your shoes.

Could you post your flight hour numbers for some insight on your qualifications? Also, did you have one (or more) recs from someone working for either company? TIA

Congrats on having a decision to make. The decision really boils down to one of your personality and goals. I'd recommend thinking seriously about the questions I'm getting ready to ask:
1) Do you feel comfortable possibly being in your senior airplane the first day on the job?
2) Do you have a need to fly big, heavy, wide, and long? (I call it "fuselage envy")
3) Do you desire to have a lot of personal interaction with many different people while at work? (Flight Attendants, passengers, and the general public.)
4) Is money your primary goal? (Total career earnings projectors are just that ... projections. It wasn't long ago that a 747 Capt made more than a 737 driver. Hopefully the pay scale will correct itself but we're all just one contract away from working our way DOWN the ladder of success.)
5) Do you look good in brown? (Not me!)

I posted this link in a different thread but recommend that you view this short video before you make your choice. The bottom line is that SWA doesn't want you if you simply want to be a pilot, locked up front behind the Kevlar door. You have to want to become involved with the entire workforce and be willing to do whatever it takes to keep the operation moving.

Jackie Frieberg's Video on SWA hiring: http://www.freibergs.com/keynotes-videos-jackie13.html

So, if you think you'd like SWA, come on over! You're in the enviable position of being able to dip a toe in the kool-aid (so to speak) and find out first hand if it's really what you want. Then, if/when UPS calls down the road you can make an informed decision whether to stay or go.

Good luck!

My thoughts exactly.

If I were to get offered a class date at both, I would take UPS just for the fact that you are not relying on flying passengers to keep your airline afloat. There are a lot of things to consider though.

Lots of good advice here. Basicly it boils down to this: Take the SWA job but stay in the UPS pool. If UPS offers you a job and you're not enamoured with flying "carbon based revenue generators" around, jump ship.

Given the choice between passengers and freighters, I prefer to fly freight. Boxes don't ***** and you don't have to get permission from a F/A to take a leak.

I can relate to your dilemma. When I walked out of the UPS interview and called my wife she told me that SWA had just called with an interview. At lunch during the SWA interview PM from UPS called me with a class date. During my first week of ground school at UPS, SWA called with the congrats call but they did not have classes for a few months.

I am huge on corporate culture. During my first 6 months at Brown it was tense. That was the summer of 2005. Everyone was on edge and the strike talk/contract rhetoric was agonizing for me. I very seriously considered leaving at the 6 month point to take the SWA class. Someone gave me the advice of not taking the rhetoric seriously and that it was typical during negotiations so I stayed.

I am very glad I did. IMO SWA takes care of you by making you feel appreciated and valued. I think they do this, and have to do it, because they lack so many of the benefits that UPSers take for granted. Our health plans are better than what I had in the military. I don't know anyone at UPS that blocks more than 400 hours a year. So I think we are home more and work a lot less hard than SWA guys.

UPS has a culture of dealing with labor in an adversarial role. This is not as bad as I once thought. I have been treated very well when I had 2 separate family emergencies. All of my training has been phenomenol. We just have a more spartan environment at our gateways and cafeterias/facilities than SWA does. With the new contract it will get a lot better as they put in beds in place of lazy boys and improve the crew lounges.

UPS flies to more locations in China than any other airline pax or cargo. We are poised to double profits in the next 5 years and almost all of it is coming through the airline portion of UPS. I decided that having the most stable job in the industry was worth more than having a nice cafeteria while in training.

As far as money goes consider this. If a 2d year FO at SWA and UPS get a $6000 paycheck after taxes it is not the same thing. The UPS guy also gets about $900 deposited for him into his B plan. The SWA guy has to take money out of his paycheck to fund his 401k in order the get SWA to match.

UPS has a fantastic fleet and flies almost everywhere in the world. You could fly an MD-11 into Borat's home in Kazakstan, a 747-400 into Sydney or stay close to home and fly an A-300 or 757 around the states. With our single pay scale, lateral movements are a lot easier than at the pax carriers or FedEx. I've been here 2 years and can hold any FO seat I want. New hires will probably go to ANC though. The upside is that you could be an MD-11 capt there in 3-4 years or bid back to ONT, MIA, or SDF after a few years.

IMO UPS is the best or 2d best flying job. (FedEx has phenomenol pay rates for 2d year FOs on widebodies) SWA is the best pax carrier. Looking back it was an easy decision for me. If I was you I would take the first class date offered and I would quit SWA to start at UPS if the situtation occurred. Best of luck and be thankful you have this 'problem'.

Problem is he doesn't have a bird in hand yet. This is a tough decision, and illustrates why UPS's pool situation is so shiatty. If they pulled you out in order, I would definitely wait for the class date and save the 6000 for the type rating. Since they don't pull you out in order, you could languish for years and still never get pulled out.

Now if you are really happy and secure with what you are doing now and can wait, it would make sense to save the money and wait for UPS to call. Chances are you will only wait a few months. Meanwhile you just tell SW that you are going to get your type (you have 6 months) and hope UPS calls.

IF UPS hasn't called in 5 months, get the type and go to class at SW as soon as you can. IF that happens, and then UPS calls with a class date, you will then have a real decision to make.

Given the fact that you could sit in the brown pool indefinitely I would go get the type (if I could afford it) and get in the first class available at SW.

That is about the best you can do, and hopefully you will get to make the decision sooner than later.

The point here is to take the first job offered by either. He sounds like he is going to get an offer from SWA. Likely he will make enough $$$ flying for SWA (compaired to what he might make flying for a regional) while he waits for UPS to more than make up for what he spends on the type rating. The fact that the rating is tax deductable make it even cheaper. If SWA would hire him and he could fly for them for a while before UPS calls could be a great opportunity to see what it would be like to stay there. Might give him the chance to make a more informed decision when UPS calls........

A 737 type is not tax deductible, at least according to my wife who is also a tax attorney!

Unless they have changed the tax law it is an itemized educational expense.:)

:confused: Chicken little is at it again! Your statement about effciency is odd. All on has to do is be in the middle of a hub and choke surge and realized how a point to point system has advantages. It is all about CPSM. Pan Am had lucrative international routes too! Some of the legacies are looking like Pan Am and with the next terrorist attack.........:cool:

My thoughts are fairly close to velocipede. Take the job you are offered if its SWA first(bird in hand,I am a ups poolie since 6/05). See if it works for you(keep the ups pool thing in the vault due to being on probation). Then if you swim free to UPS go for it(plain economics). I have dealt in both envirionments and after 20 years work is work, pax are a pain in the butt. Boxes never complain and oh yeah the seat belt sign NOT (nod to borat) cockpit door NOT.

I agree, and if you read my post that is pretty much what I said.

"Given the fact that you could sit in the brown pool indefinitely I would go get the type (if I could afford it) and get in the first class available at SW".


The reason he doesn't have a bird in hand yet is because he doesn't have the type.

So until he has a type (no slam dunk) and is sitting in class at SW or is yanked out of the pool at UPS and is sitting in class, he has nothing in hand.

That is the main dilemma here. Spend the bucks to get the bird in hand or wait it out at Brown.

If it were me, I'd get the type, get in class at SW ASAP, and kiss Brown goodbye.

That is just me.

Maybe your wife isn't as smart as you think she is!:)

Educational expense for improving qualifications in the same field. Looks pretty cut and dried to me, but then again I am not a tax attorney.

Of course I wouldn't put too much stock in tax advice on a pilot web board anyway.

job
 

Get your type in the 737. Go to SWA. Wait for the call from UPS. Make your decision then. (It may take UPS months to call.)

Easy,...hold out for the first outfit that offers you a job:confused:
If Browntail offers you a spot later, then decide.
fbh

What is so odd about it. Southwest has the industries LOWEST loadfactor. About 70%, while most the legacies are around 85%. Why? Because Southwest offers point to point service.
I am not saying it is bad. I am not saying Southwest cannot make money with it. I am just saying that the hub and spoke system is more efficient than point to point.

SNAFU 1......Tax Attorney wife 0. You are correct and I deducted the balance that the GI Bill didn't pay.

You couldn't be more wrong, the hub and spoke system is grossly more inefficient than point to point systems which is exactly why SWA can do well with lower load factors. Hub systems could actually transport a passenger twice as many miles to their destination as a point point carrier for the same price (example STL-BWI, SWA non-stop; DAL STL-ATL-BWI). Additionally the point to point carrier only touches luggage twice. Once to put it on and once taking it off. Hub carriers have to have armies of rampers and agents to exchange luggage and work gates for connections. The hub carrier touches the luggage two additional times for every connection the passenger makes. That is also why any point to point carrier should be able to win baggage handling stats hands down. The hub carriers have fortunes invested in hub facilities that point to point carries do not have to fund. Hub carriers have to time flight schedules for connections which cuts down on daily aircraft utilization. There can be no comparison, other than airplanes they are two different animals.

yup......what he said. at least it was a few years ago, but I'm no tax expert.

Let me get this straight. Efficiency = High Load factors? You are oh so, very wrong. How do you explain it when companies have record load factors, yet still lose money? We're all waiting.

That might just take the cake for the most ill-informed post of the century. I guess those 30 years of continuous profits at SW have nothing to do with the efficiency of point to point service?

In fact, I would argue that it is precisely because of their point to point service that SW has enjoyed those years of profit.

Sure they do great with fuel hedging and the ingeniously stick to one type of aircraft, but their wages are on par with everybody else's now and you still see them posting a profit every quarter.

Must just be pure fng magic because there's no way that ole point to point service could be more efficient than having half your fleet holding over Rome intersection at 9am on a beautiful Tues morning waiting to get into that super efficient hub in Hotlanta.

Yeah, I'd go for that ole hub and spoke any day as a pax, because I LIKE changing planes in ATL. That really shortens my trip and makes my travel day more efficient.

I don't think so.

Another Perspective! If you are fling in CONUS then Point-to-Point is the way to go. However, the next time you want to go to London, Paris, Tokyo or Singapore call Southwest and see if they can help you. International Carriers must use Hub and Spoke since you cannot fill up a A330 or777 from Grand Rapids to Frankfurt. Just a thought!

Before the spelling cops get on my case, It should be flying.

Take the first company that offers you a job and class date. Assuming that the second one offers you a job, then make the command decision to stay or go. It's a tough decision but cross one bridge at a time.

Southwest is a great company with a super attitude. UPS is very profitable, they've been moving boxes for a very long time and will be here for the next million years.

MDM,

You are absolutely correct! For now! I asked a question of SWA's CEO a few years ago. What does one do with 750 737's? What would most airlines do? Feed international routes! Any questions?:cool:

Definetly got to take the job that will put food on the table and the ability to pay the mortage. That sounds like you need to go to SWA. If you get the call to go to UPS and that is truly want you want out of life than go ahead and switch. It happens all the time. Best of luck to you.................

Oscar and the other Kool Aid Boys
 

Kick the crack addiction...SWA is not going international...it would wreck havoc on the efficiency/quick turn thing ya'll got going. Try quick turning an airplane while waiting 15-30 minutes for the TSA/DHS/Customs & Immigration morons.

I'd vote UPS...could you tell?

The international rumor is to keep the embry riddle/commuter geeks excited about the future of flying to Europe in a 787 w/SWA on the tail. Can you imagine spending your life as a professional pilot and never leaving CONUS????