Delta contract/IOE question
 

Quick question...Let's say you have completed transition training on a new aircraft. Let's also say that you are sitting and waiting for IOE. Your bid award has given you the upcoming holiday off. Can the company make you fly an IOE trip over the holiday even if your seniority allowed you to have the holiday off?

Not 100% sure, but yeah, I believe they can. You are basically at the mercy of the IOE scheduler and the LCAs schedule. Did you not get the letter at the beginning of training from the scheduler asking you to call if there were any days you needed free? No garantee that you'd get them off, but they do try and honor requests.

Absolutely. If you had seniority to have vacation on the holiday then that will be honored but short of that you are at the whim of the oe planner till complete. Now that assumes a LCA bid a trip over Thanksgiving as well, but ask me how I know it happens..... At least you can bring a companion via S2B over the holiday.

Some oe planners are better than others. Let's just say that on one fleet at least the oe planner basically ignores you until he assigns you and any requests will be held in contempt.

Call your OE Scheduler. He/She will probably know by now if they plan to put you on a trip over the holidays. Keep in mind that many LCA are junior and are on Reserve. If they commute, they would rather fly then sit in a hotel or crash pad on Thanksgiving/Christmas

Last year, my first IOE trip covered Christmas eve and Christmas day. My LCA was pretty senior, kids out of the house and brought his wife along for a 30 SFO hour layover (Christmas Day). His kids were scattered around the U.S. so they had already done their Christmas. He couldn't believe that the planners put a IOE on that trip. But when they're backed up on training I would expect they'll do the same this year. I didn't get to bid for that month so I didn't have any "off" days. Hopefully they will honor your schedule, but from what I understand, it comes down to LCA availability.

The -ER? LOL

A little thread drift here but, new hire IOE wait is now 8 weeks past type ride for my class. We haven't heard a word!! For a new guy who's excited to start a new career it's a little dis-heartening to sit in a pool for 4 -6 months waiting for indoc, and then wait for training, and then wait 8 weeks after the type for IOE, and never hear a word for your employer. Many poolies waiting for a class date are leaving for companies that are giving them training dates and I know we are losing good guys to competitors. I know that I am whining, but a little communication goes A LONG WAY!!

They won't let us leave passengers in the dark during a holding pattern, shouldn't our employees be treated the same way?

Is that 8 week wait for IOE an ER thing or fleet wide?

DAL 757. I'd say you got hired in the big boy leagues. So be a big boy. Many of us have waited on oe. In 25+ years I've had 16 schools (no kidding/lots of displacements back in the day). I've spent 6 weeks waiting on oe at least 3x. I went to 737a school and got displaced to the ERb before they could get me oe = 2 months at home. What other career pays you to stay at home? Enjoy it. Marie will get you on the line as soon as she can.

That would be XXXXXX(sp) who is absolutely the worst OE guy I have ever worked with. Several years ago, I was bidding #25 in my category and he tried to assign my TOE over thanksgiving to Rome after I specifically asked to have Thanksgiving off because my son was coming home from deployment. Never mind that I could have the whole week off with my seniority, all I wanted was 3 days with my son. What a jerk.

With 29 years with the company, I have never asked for any special favors or called in sick during a holiday. But in this case I told them point blank - "there is no way I'm missing thanksgiving with my son". I was up front and honest with them- I would call in sick for the trip if they didn't move it off of Thanksgiving. The Training Captain said there was nothing they could do.

In desperation, I called the Chief Pilots office (they knew all about XXXXXX because of all the complaints) and they took care of it for me. TOE was rescheduled to 2 days later on the Saturday after Thanksgiving to FRA.

Why that guy is still working here baffles me.

I guess that's fair. I appreciate the re-grounding. I will say though that one has to remember, we aren't getting paid flight pay until after IOE. I've been dipping into the 401k to make it work....I do know I will make up for it quickly though. I am very happy to be here and have first world problems, and I know that I am just whining a bit. Thanks again.

Well...that stinks about the holidays...but loving the paid time off!! :D Thanks for the replies...

They have recently made some "personnel moves" in the ER (OE/TOE) planning/scheduling department. "M" is running the show now.



CT,

I'm sure you'd agree, the 717 club lost an excellent OE planner/scheduler when Marie was moved to the ER team.

Elliot

I don't know any of the planners mentioned but remember they also have to schedule Line Checks and Theatre Quals not just OE. I was once scheduled to DH to NRT to give a Line Check the next day to SIN. On the bus to the hotel I was talking to another pilot who told me he was a reserve called out to fly to SIN the next day. The original CA called in sick for that leg ( Must of known I was coming). I was rescheduled to DH to HNL to do a Line check the next day to ATL. That flight cancelled so I DH'd back to base. That is what these planners have to deal with on a regular basis. This was on the A330. I can't imagine what it is like on a large fleet

I'd say enjoy it while you can. Use that time to re-study the plane and flows etc and spend time with your family and travel for free. Your situation is way better than the alternative: exactly one week off to cram down a memory stick to type rating exam expectations, then 24 hours off between phases/events, sometimes not even commutable on one or either end.

I agree they could usually do a better job of communicating things like that, especially for the poolies, but often they don't know as much as you think they do/should know either. When they're this busy they spend most of their time putting out fires and filling holes in the schedule as they pop up. They usually don't know very much either, as the whole airline is run completely by marketing's split second binge and purge decision making for its million fleet type armada.

I do empathize with you about the "training pay" issue though. I would strongly advocate spending "negotiating capital" on new pilots going to line pay after their checkride instead of after OE because its the right thing to do, and by definition only happens when we're hiring anyway so its not like they can't afford it.

But anyway, enjoy the calm before the storm. Even the money is a drop in the ocean over the length of a career. You'll hit the ground running soon enough, and you may or may not ever get a break like this again in your career.

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more. I can't think of any other industry in which prospective employees and new hires are treated so poorly when they are expected to have such responsibility and are going to get paid so well later in their career. I know you've had your career frustrations, and the union helps heal those wounds with pay and benefits, but it's poor leadership to keep people in dark, make them wait, and generally treat them like crap.

I interviewed at two normal jobs as I transitioned from the military and a few airlines. I was very surprised at the difference in the way I was treated by the airlines compared to "normal" companies. (Expenses reimbursed, hotel, and rental car at interview location)

When a job offer came in from the regular company, a comprehensive package was FedEx'ed and I could tell them a start date. On the other hand, I got a one page letter from DAL with no details on pay or benefits and a vague guess as to start date that turned out to be very incorrect. In five months, I recieved one email with a status update. They are certainly going to lose talent in the long run.

Communication is cheap. Keep your people informed.

I was told by multiple sources that he was fired recently.

Frigid, but in the end you still came to DAL.....

Not legitimizing it, but in the end, the process will be only as good as it needs to be to attract talent. Corporate is only concerned with butts in seats in the end.

A lot of hurt feelings on here. DAL isn't the only airline that operates this way. All of my previous companies had various bottlenecks in the process with little to no info provided. 8 weeks off is a god send.. Soon you will be flying 84hr ALV :o

Oh Lord, you are going to be sorely disappointed if you stay with airline flying. There is nothing more expensive to an airline like a well informed pilot. All they want are mushrooms. Just remember, the following phrase, "4 to 6 (day, weeks, months, years,) is their favorite way to pass information. Knowledge is power, and they don't want us having any power.

FWIW, my approach is to just enjoy the time off. When they want me to fly a plane, they'll let me know. Otherwise, nothing beats getting paid to sit on my couch!

I thought the failed NA15 would have changed new hire pay by starting flight pay (reserve guarantee) after initial rating ride date. Let's make sure that remains in the language.

The one point I'm not hearing is the effect/cost of a long break in training continuity while awaiting IOE. I'm sure the discontinuity causes some new hires to require a 3rd OE trip when they could have gotten through with 2 if they had good training continuity

In any other profession new hires are paid their salary on day one. Can you imagine a top-tier law school grad finding out that he'll be on "training pay" until he passes some test? I believe Cathay and most large foreign carriers pay salary from day one. I'll never forget my newhire check ride APD. He asks if I was tired of "bleeding Delta dry" on my training pay -- and he wasn't joking. On probation so I bit my tounge.

Then again, I have to stop and remind myself this is the "always did it this way," industry.

When I started at Cathay in 2007 I got full pay, 80% per diem, and single accommodation for the full 4 months of training. The per diem itself was enormous. It was very nice. That is not the case anymore however. I believe new SO's only get one month accommodation, however I believe they still get pay and per diem. Pay and Per Diem at CX as an SO is pretty equivalent to 1st to 2nd yr Regional Pay(i.e.. the Pay is much higher but cost of living is insane!).

Worst than the new hire pay at Delta is the fact that they don't provide a hotel room while you are in training..That is the most retarded thing to expect from a highly profitable airline. American and United pilots get a hotel room, full per diem and a 75-90 hour guarantee while in training..For some reason the two airlines that claim to be the best Delta/Fedex don't even provide a hotel..

In Qatar, we get a fully furnished 3 bedroom apartment, transportation, food and a $6,500 check every month while in training from day 1..Right after training the pay jumps to $13,000 per month even during IOE

WOW! Then I don't understand why Guy's/Gal's here aren't quitting Delta/United/American/ Southwest/ UPS/Fedex, etc. and flocking to Qatar. Oh yeah. Maybe it's because it's in the Middle East.

The key operating phrase in your statement is in Qatar

Awww..now you have to attack Qatar up against all the U.S airlines..Facts are the facts..Its just that you Delta Pilots are certainly a "special" group so you get offended when truth be told..I was speaking of how poorly the new hires are treated( no hotel, no full pay) while in training and comparing it to other very reputable airlines like American, United, Qatar, etc...

My point was that when someone is considering which airline they would like to work for, they have much more to consider than just the first few months of employment. I am sure every one of the "you Delta Pilots" would strongly support new hires being compensated better than they are today.

In a microcosm everything you said is correct. It must then speak volumes that ME3 expats are trying to come home in droves while new hire DAL FOs not getting their hotels paid for and earning $4k/month on crappy new hire pay aren't even considering the ME3.

Ahhh..My " special" Delta friend MikeF16... good to hear from you..Where do you get your noble information from Mike? Other Delta pilots? Lol...As far as expats in Qatar wanting to fly for U.S airlines, well, naturally some people want to come home and no amount of money will keep them from wanting to come home..However, there is a pilot in Qatar, 27 years old who interviewed with Delta just for the heck of it, got hired and is not taking the job at Delta after seeing how third world everything is with Delta..Old airplanes, poor pay, no hotels in training, now keep in mind he has more than enough money to afford his own hotel and endure first year pay but he says there is no glamour in being a Delta pilot..Now keep in mind this is coming from a good ole Caucasian boy from the Midwest...So you see, there are other avenues in life other than just being a Delta pilot..I hate to pick on you guys but there is something seriously wrong with DALs hiring process because most of you behave similarly and that's not a good thing..Keep in mind, my best friend is a Delta pilot close to retirement so it's not like I hate all of you...Anyhow, to each his own..Whatever one likes one should go after..Maybe Delta is heaven for you..

You know 1... Who claims he was hired... No debating that kind of strong argument.

This is exactly what I would expect from you...You make it seem like getting hired at Delta is like getting hired as an Investment Banker at Goldman Sachs lol..Dude, being a Delta Pilot is not like becoming an A List Celebrity..Please..Its only a job where you get to fly those beautiful md-88s around Alabama and Kentucky..Your salary ranges from 55,000- 250,000 per year on the high end..You know what that equates to? A regular middle class lifestyle so no you are not quite at the Tom Cruise level

Wow. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Take the absolute worst case scenario at Delta and run with it.

Delta has hired of plenty of pilots from the ME3 this latest round. How many have gone the other way to live in that paradise over there, besides the 27-year-old? Plenty of threads on APC this past year of attrition, guys getting worked like dogs, guys trying their best to get back stateside. If your story about the 27-year-old is true, he's going to be full of regret very quickly.

I know there are plenty of pilots from ME3 being hired at U.S. Legacies..You are right..In the 27 year olds case, he is certainly not dumb, he's a CalTech grad, great pilot, FO on the 787 about to become Captain on the 787 very soon..( before 29) Mike16 was questioning if the 27 year old even got hired or if he was just claiming to be- that just sounds arrogant so I had to respond to him accordingly

There is only 1 person here making arrogant asinine comments. I pointed out that in spite of terrible trainee pay ME3 pilots are flocking to DAL while you don't see any DAL pilots going to the ME3 and you go off the deep end on some tirade. I get under your skin a little in another thread? Good. You work for a crappy company in a crappy country, your tirades and self denial can't change that. I'll take po-dunk USA over Doha, Dubai, or Abu Dhabi any day of the year.

I would really enjoy some beers with you Mike and a nice joint while we're at it and shoot the sh!t...and..and...and...Ofcourse with some nice hot chicks from po-dunk USA for sure, Daisy Duke types not the ones with missing teeth :)

Don't worry Mike.. Airbus boy is another person that didn't make the cut here and is now upset about it. Hey Airbus guy, how's the treatment of your FAs over there? Talk about third world.. At least Alabama and KY citizens know how to treat people. GMAFB

A330 fly boy, we get it. That part of the Delta contract ( hotel, training pay) needs improvement. It's definitely not on par with the other legacies. That will be fixed. However, it is a small price to pay if you look at a (hopefully) 30 year career. I for one did not base my decision on coming to Delta on that part of the contract. We understand that you love it there in DOH flying for Goat Airways. Some of us are perfectly fine flying sh!*ty maddogs with old hags in the back in Covington, KY in a FREE country. To each his own Sadiqi.

Habibi, I had my crashpad in Covington, back in the day...I enjoyed my time flying in the states, for sure..My whole point is that Delta is making Billions n Billions in profits then when it comes to the petty little stuff like providing competitive pay or hotels, etc in training, they lack like there is no tomorrow...Then the pilots come on here lying about how much they make when it's all public information to begin with..My friend is a single digit seniority guy at Delta and he laughs at some of the posts on here by DAL pilots..He clearly states that these guys are LYING..He said he's never broke 250,000 a year in his 40 years at Delta, meanwhile you have some tools on here
claiming to make almost that as FOs...

As far as Goat Airways, I love it..Couldnt ask for more