APC posts the "real" hiring environment?
 

This isn't intended to be derogatory towards anyone or put down those still trying to score that CJO, but I'm curious if the masses think the posts/credentials on APC depict the "real" hiring environment.

More specifically, there seems to be a large number of folks posting "8000 TT, 20 years military, 2000 121 time, etc, etc, etc" but haven't even been offered an interview or didn't get a CJO.

Are these folks outliers, or people w/ enemies in HR, or folks w/ some flaw in their record and will likely never get hired, or APC happens to draw in those people who haven't been successful, or something else?

With the market (debatably) hot for pilot hiring, it seems odd how many folks report years of no offers with great credentials. It could leave one to believe that fighting to meet ATP requirements will never result in getting hired.

goes to say alot of people who are getting hired know someone in HR, are a women or minority

Not at my company.

Age seems a bigger demographic qualifyer/discriminator than the others. Average 32, +/-4. A few in their early 50s, but very rare.

About 50-50 Mil or RJ.

I'm happy to see that it seems (at least on the surface) very much based on experience, and interpersonal skills; ie, could you stand to do a 4-day trip with this person.

I know lots of guys who meet those criteria, and somehow never get the call.

Chalk it up to the mystery of the cosmos.

1000+ USAF guys separating. Avg flight time??? 2,500????

17,000 regional guys??? Avg flight time???? 8,000????

So half have more than those guesses.

AA has 16,000+ applications.

DL's avg civ OTS hire, since 2014, had 7,656 hrs.


There's thousands of applicants with 5,000+ hrs.

Or, have a passing familiarity with grammar.

I'll be here all week, try the veal.

Have you looked at the who's been hired thread? When I do, it seems to be a bunch of folks saying they got hired, and listing their qual's. Most seem kind of normal. So folks are getting hired.

The job hunt was scary to me. All I can say is focus on what you can control. Don't sweat stuff you can't.

I only know one astronaut (went to SWA), everyone else was pretty normal. We all got hired.

Right, so if that's who's getting hired, when I fly on a major airline, I should expect to see a lot of women and minorities in the cockpit then?

But nearly every time it's two white guys?

I can count on one hand how many times I've seen a minority or woman in the cockpit when I commute.

Whoever thinks it's only minorities and women that are getting hired is delusional.

It's not that big of a mystery. Right now the playing field is slanted towards Military guys/girls and WO RJ Pilots with flow through type deals.

It truly sucks for the guys at regionals without any type of flow or preferential interview agreements, because 3-5 or more years ago, no one knew this would be the environment they would be competing in. But, to attract pilots at their regionals, while cutting pay, the majors had to get creative. Some guys ended up with a multi-million dollar job land that much closer, while others found that job even further out of reach.

I feel for you guys. There was no way to predict this current environment. I worked at Mesa from '96-2000. I was lucky to get hired at a major in 2000. I was youngish....29, but by virtue of getting hired at the end of the wave, and three years on furlough, and the lack of hiring up until recently, there aren't a lot of guys separating me from a 2012 hire.

The flow through a will be exhausted soon and there are only so many Military guys....Off the street hires should be increasing at most majors this year. Keep trying. Based on retirements alone, it's going to be a long, strong run of hiring going forward. Keep your chin up, your nose clean, and keep trying to better your resume. Your chance will come, as long as you take the time to submit an application. It isn't the awesome career it used to be, but it's still a great job.

And you don't know for sure if you are getting accurate information. Someone may say they haven't got the call but really did interview and was turned down.

Network, network, network.

All things being equal (and they rarely ever are), having IP/EP/management experience along with a number of LORs - especially from internal instructor/evaluator/management types - is exceedingly helpful in getting past the tall stack of applications.

I don't think it is quite as easy to get hired as you are making it seem. After slogging it out with a perfect record, multiple job fairs with great interactions, chief pilot meet and greets, 7000+ TT and 1500 TPIC I still haven't been able to make it to a legacy... my regional was full of guys with great experience and every box checked just waiting on the call. We are literally a dime a dozen and the legacy airlines are working through the stack of applicants. Right now it takes quite a bit to be competitive unless you really stand out from the herd. That might not be the case in two years but for right now the average times of those civilians getting hired by legacy carriers (roughly 7500) is equivalent to almost a decade of regional flying.

I think TT and TPIC have much less to do with hiring than most people think. It might have been the case 10 years ago, but now it seems that advanced degrees, union work, committee work, volunteer work, etc is what is setting a lot of people apart.

This certainly wasn't the case for the people who showed in my hiring group. 7/8 were male, the female didn't get hired. No minorities. Half were in their 40's, the rest were in their low to mid 30's. None had flowthrough. Every one of them seemed like a genuinely nice person. 5/8 were strict military, one was mil/regional but he didn't get hired...
YMMV but there are jobs out there. Keep networking and keep trying!

Boy these HR departments like titles.... All the guys getting hired are mil IP, EP, WIC, XP or astronauts.

I wonder how many "no shows" are appearing in the new hire classes? I know mil guys w/ multiple CJOs.

I think this hits the nail on the head. If you really want that legacy job, (just my opinion) fastest rout would be to side step to a junk carrier that flies heavier metal. Takes you out of the 10000+ pile o rj drivers and puts you into a different class.

Ymmv, obviously

Not sure the heavier metal helps that much. I have lots of heavy time. I didn't hear anything until I had some major inside help.. FWIW..

While this number may in fact be true you can rest assured that most of these applicants also have paper in at UAL, DAL, SWA etc and WILL go to the first company that offers them a job or will no show a class date if they indeed do have multiple offers. The number above is actually quite a bit smaller than what all these HR departments seem to think.

CaptCool... Heavy time doesn't seem to mean much anymore either. Or at least that is what it seems like to me. Early 30's, several thousand hrs on "Heavies" including PIC, and still nothing. All the other boxes are checked as well (i.e. degree, internals, clean record, 1000+ TPIC, volunteer, union position, job fairs, etc.) So who really knows what the magic formula is. That being said, I think something will come up soon but its still pretty competitive out there.... Good luck to everyone, we all need it!

Guys I'm not saying it's a ticket to ride. Just that if you've got 7-8k hours of rj it might help. Obviously it sucks making lateral moves, no one wants to start again.

Just an idea to get the ball rolling. If any of us knew the magic formula, I'd be selling it for $1000/oz.

Personally, if the option was available, I'd switch aircraft internally before quitting and going to the ACMI job for some heavy flying.

I have said this to many people. Getting on at a regional is about what you know and TT. Getting on at a major early in the waves is about who you know and how you network. Not saying it's fair and it only just an observation.

I like how if you are a minority, then that was the reason you are hired :rolleyes:

It would be pretty easy to stop all the rumors and allegations by posting resumes/experience/qualifications like FAPA did years ago.

It's funny that in the 'information age' we have less information vs. 30 years ago.

How many have the Majors actually hired in 2015 (outside of flows/ recalls) vs the number of applicants?

If my suspicions are correct, the majors didn't do all that much hiring this year, even though there's been "talk" of the big hiring wave starting. If you feel that you're a dime a dozen with your background and none of your peers are getting hired yet, that just means the wave hasn't gotten big enough where they're picking up mainstream guys yet. They're just taking the outliers (mil, flow etc) right now, but if projections are correct in five years today's dime a dozen may be sought after because they're a known quality.

Flying outside the U.S. Heavies or not and trying to get back is very hard to almost impossible of getting a job with the Legacies unless you are a furlough pilot


My2c

This is (in a sense quite literally) the million dollar question - will the majors hire the "mainline" guys? Who is the example mainline guy anyway? I suppose much of that has to do with what happens to the regionals.

Minority, mil, civilian, old, young, heavy time, fighter time, prop time....if you are a tool, you won't get hired even if you have one of each genitals. In regards to minorities, even if the legacies/majors were to hire every single minority pilot out there, they would still be a small minority. It's still a whiteman's profession the last time I checked the stats.

Age 68 rule is coming...

*grabs popcorn*

This discussion is funny and sad. I have been moving around the sky for 25 years with no accidents, incidents on the aviation, civilian or personal side (i.e. jail, bankruptcy and the like) I have several degrees and the last two interviews the focus has been on a CII ground school failure from 25 years ago, and my cumulative GPA is 3.32. Yes I know, how did you handle the barbed looks and line of questioning. I would think that that GPA, 5 types, 12000 TT, 4500 PIC, multiple letters and internals would get a guy somewhere? I have been wrong in the past. I guess I still am, oh well, off to see the world in a 74.

I think most would agree being a minority or a woman is not THE reason a pilot gets hired, but it definitely helps. If I had to put a percentage on the number of white males I fly with: 95%. Which if I'm an HR guy means I'm going to do my best to get non-white males on property if they have the requirements. You haven't flown with hardly any women or minorities? Well, do you think that's a matter of your company intentionally turning them away, or their not pursuing the profession? Positives on your app help you get the interview. Being a woman or a minority is just another positive, albeit a huge one.

Man, I would never leave the house....!

The flight deck of U.S. airlines remains a predominantly white male landscape. {snip}
Today, 4.1 percent of airline transport pilots (ATPs) are women, 2.7 percent are black or African-American, 2.5 percent are Asian and 5 percent are Hispanic or Latino.Sep 24, 2014



Totals 14%. Leaves 86% for white males.

I think the truth is, in the eyes of those doing the hiring, experience, degrees, type ratings and even clean records are valuable only to a point. I'd argue that anything beyond a few thousand hours, 2 type ratings, and a 4 year degree is just background noise. Once that threshold has been met the emphasis is almost entirely on how one presents his/herself at the interview.

Put yourself in the interviewer's shoes.

Would you hire the young kid with 6500TT and 1200 TPIC with 2 types and a single 4 year degree who had a great attitude and made you like him?

Or would you hire the middle aged guy with 14000 TT 9500 TPIC 5 types, and 2 master's degrees who had an ok attitude but left you feeling ambivalent toward him?

I'm not saying this second person is you (perhaps it's actually me). I'm just saying the idea that we're marketable because we've checked all the experience boxes, educated ourselves to the hilt and picked up a nobel peace prize, is a self deluding lie. The same you that gets you that second date, is the you that gets you the job. Corny I know, but I think it's true.

Part of the problem was when a bunch of us (now 40 plus year olds) were coming up through the ranks this event happened (I think people have heard of it). We are now over the hill and over qualified, all due to timing. To add to the injury another event 7 years later put a bunch of us on the street yet again and now we are even further separated from the HR sweet spot, but now we have even more experience and further over the hill. Oh well, back to getting my ticket home from my multi nation two week tour.

Yep, I hear you Longhauler. Waiting on a class date at NWA at the tender age 28, all bright-eyed and eager (when the first event happened)...now stuck in the sandpit almost 11 years (came there thinking it would be 3-5 years). 14,000+ hours and early 40s.

From looking at all the AA new hire photos I would say that the majority of people coming here are 40 plus. Just an observation. Of course most of them are flow from PSA/Envoy/Piedmont


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I think the point some people are making is that minorities in this profession get hired with less time or comparable experience. I am not saying it to argue either way. Life isn't fair and someones good luck can always be excused away with jealousy.

Hell I wish I'm Black got over 11k hours 6000TPIC 2 types and I'm still on the outside looking out. Right now these airlines are cherry picking because they can and they're scared ****less of the fact that soon There's gonna butt load of pilots they're gonna need and they aren't ready for it


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Can you back that up with anything resembling proof?

I think if you happen to get a chance to walk through any pilot lounge, or the training center--you will be underwhelmed at the number of non-white non-male pilots.

Quoted for Truth