I'll believe it when I see it

I'm 35, have a 4 year Degree, over 8,000hrs, 1,000 TPIC in an Airbus, no busted rides, plenty of Volunteering, a handful of Job fairs and nothing.

All the LCC have to do is pay industry wages. They can still be Low cost and ultra low cost with industry compensated pilots. They all will pay they just haven't had to yet since people keep showing up even if it is the worst of the worst.

This is a HUGELY capital intensive industry. There have been more LCC bankruptcies than legacy bankruptcies.

The difference is that LCCs usually file Chap 7 after initially filing Chap 11 because they can't find enough debtor in possession (DIP) financing to keep the doors open. Legacies, on the other hand, can usually find enough DIP financing to reorganize under Chap 11.
Let me rattle off a few names: Eos, Maxjet, Skybus, ATA, Independence, Midway. I'm sure I missed a few.

If you look at Virgin America's history, the investors had to do multiple restructurings in order to get the company profitable - equity injections, lease renegotiations, etc. If VX had been a public company, those restructurings would have had to take place in Chap 11.

Have you spent a few hundred bucks at Cage, Emerald, etc to find out why you aren't getting interviews?

Negative.

I'll look into it, thanks

It may end up being the best money you've ever spent. You sound very well qualified; there may be something you're doing/not doing that they will find.

I consider the money I spent on interview prep to be some of the best spent money I've done. I have no ties to any interview consultants; just recommending it because we all can be blind to stuff that ends up being a huge hindrance to getting hired.

Good luck to ya.

I was a G4 captain (7years) and left for one of the big 4. I'm very glad I did. My schedule is MUCH better I will make the same amount of money in 3 years not to mention better retirement and benefits.

He's probably doing everything right.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/93656-street-hire-civilian-stats-big-3-a.html

Not saying throw a pity party, just accept that right now if you're civilian, non-flow-through, it's really tough to get the call. Maybe in a few years barring any industry shocks things will loosen up.

LOL you have plenty of volunteering, you make it sound like a box to check.

If you don't know that it is a very real "box" then you've been out of the game a while.

The amount of retirements surpasses the amount of regional pilots available to fill those seats.

Yep. The mathematics of the problem do not stop at the regional airlines door step.

This is why the LCCs won't see the same depletion as regionals will. The flowthrough programs will suck up so many guys so quickly, and the focus will be mil/Corp guys for off the street hiring as a balance.

The end game will be a return of all flying done in house, or at least by wholly owned subsidiaries, and creating a defined career path for the regionals.

Thank you!

Jetblue has enough qualified apps each application window to replace our entire seniority list.

Not saying we couldn't be affected by a pilot shortage. I just don't find it very likely.

6 years from today the major airlines will retire 18,000 pilots. That's more than currently work at the regionals.

No problems.... Like another poster pointed out, its the DIP financing and broad discretion allowed a BK judge that makes BK a modern day restructuring tool.

Those BK's were not caused by pilot salaries, but since bringing the companies to BK court (to account for a multitude of strategical errors by mgmt over the previous decade), they go after labor as well because it's mgmts only time to get what they want inserted into a contract.

Do you think a legacy would have allowed PBS without BK court threat? 50% pay cuts? Etc, etc.

BK court is why you still get a decent rate on corporate bonds, because they're only as good as the corp mgmt to make good strategic business decisions.

Vegas, you have all the wickets in place. Plan a small vacation, that will garner you a call from a major, when you least expect or want it.

I can hardly wait till next Xmas when your newly trained behind will be stuck on reserve in NYC and you couldn't drop due to coverage!

Going after labor is not in the company's best interests in this case. The court will be made to see that. It doesn't make sense to exasperate a problem that was recently just mitigated by a new contract.

You're focusing on the fact that Legacies (withstanding) are, at this moment, the most desirable destination due to pay, QOL, etc. Everything is relative to timing; so would you have turned down a job at Southwest in the late 90s (or even post 9/11) in favor of a Legacy job? Not unless you wanted to spend nearly a decade furloughed. How will your legacy perform under the next economic downturn or $100+ per barrel oil prices? If your Legacy airline starts to lose money, you're one of the first to get the boot.

The ULCCs create revenue under wider profit margins than the Legacies. Will the pay come up for ULCCs as the competition for qualified pilots increases, the simple answer is "yes" because they can budget for higher pay. Otherwise explain to me how LCC Southwest pilots were once the bottom-feeders in pay, and over time their pay was increased steadily to put them on top for narrowbody pay? And somehow even with those top-of-the-heap pay rates Southwest has maintained its reputation on Wall Street for reliable profitablity!

It starts with a successful business plan. As a small and successful business either you're bought up by the bigger competition or you manage to remain independent and grow.

In the case of ULCCs, if the business does well, eventually the pilots do well. If a ULCC is bought, it is to be merged, not liquidated (it would be foolish to suggest otherwise). There is a lot of precedant to prevent pilots of a successful airline from being stapled to the bottom of a list.

So the question really is, do you see the ULCC business plan as sustainable or unsustainable?

... Legacies, LCCs, ULCCs, they all have risks!

SWA pay was never brought up, it's just everyone else's was brought down so it appeared as though they were "highly compensated"...........

At least that's how I understood it

Their pay came up significantly. And then it stayed steady while everyone else ate crow for a decade after 9/11.
Another example of "it's all relevant to timing."

IMHO, if it were a contest, the LUV pilots would have won the last 20 years for U.S. pilot labor.

Fixed my quote.

I see, thanks

Just flew with a jr captain (Spirit) and he is going to United. There will be a handful of the younger captains that will leave. Especially if they live in a place where one of the big 3 has a domicile that their current company doesn't offer. This Captain lives in DEN. Last I heard spirit lost 18 first officers to other airlines in January. We hired 20 and 2 of them called and said they have accepted other positions prior to reporting for class. We have since lowered our mins.

If (or when ) they close ACY Sure will make the decision a lot easier lol

I'm a 8 year Spirit Captain and have apps out at the Big 4.
College degree, no DUIs/accidents, legacy internship, job fairs, recs. No calls yet, but I'm out of here if the phone rings. I've flown with great people here and had a good time, but the pay and retirement aren't even in the same ball park as a legacy. Spirit also runs an unreliable, dirty, and unprofessional airline. It's been bad since I've been here. Some things have improved, others have gotten worse; it gets old and degrades morale. I'm hoping the grass is greener.

I left JB after 4.5 years and a 320 upgrade in hand. With 30 years left it was worth over 1.5 million in pay and retirement to go to United. (Prior to the contract extension). I'm coming up on one year at UAL. I Used the current rates at ual vs current rates at JB to compare. Only two assumptions I made were narrow body captain at year 12 and widebody CA at year 21. Fwiw- I would have retired around 47 at JB and will retire around 300 at United. There are a lot of other reasons why I left also but these numbers made the decision easier.

You say "Big 4", you'd leave Spirit as an 8 year CA to to go SWA?

You live in one of their bases?

I do. I'd also gladly live in most of their bases. In 2015 as a year 8 captain, I made $143,000. I don't try hard or work hard, but am too senior for JRMs worth doing. Most 8 year FOs I know in my city at SWA make low 200,000s who don't try hard. $250,000 who hussle.

Reserve lines have 15 days off which is better than many lines here. No more than 3 day trips, no redeyes. I know I'd pull gear for a long time, but the pay, days off, and work rules are vastly superior and worth leaving for. Plus, SWA is due for a new contract soon.

That's impressive that SWA F/Os can make a quarter of a million a year. Precisely why our bs min day of 4 hours needs to be replaced by solid trip rigs.

We are so far behind at Spirit that it's pretty hopeless. I'm pretty angry at myself for not trying to leave sooner. Oh well, I may never get the call so best I can do is update update update and work on making this place better in the meantime

I too regret not applying earlier, but I'm not angry. We've made decisions that we thought were in our best interest and circumstances have changed.

I don't want you to be upset at yourself, you'll be happy when you get to a legacy and life will go on. Best wishes for a call soon.

Don't beat yourself up too hard; morale and expectations around here were pretty high last year, right up to the point where the union released the company's proposal in December. It was that moment we all realized we've been duped. Prior to that there wasn't any reason not to think this place could have made a great home for the rest of our careers.

Besides... right now you have the quid to look forward to!

Exactly right!!

High fives all around!!

I know 3, 4, and 8 year captains leaving or trying to leave Spirit. All are under 35.

Wow. Airbus captains under age 35. My oh my have things changed since I got in in early 90's. Glad there's more opportunity now.


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Except they are paid FO rates.

Spirit has captains under 30. Some of whom have been captains for over two years. In the years to come the legacies will likely have mid 30's 73/320 captains too.

To the OP,
Don't forget to factor in retirement benefits into your calculus. During 2004-2007 when UPS was hiring, I know of at least 3 16year plus Captains from USAir and Northwest that left. I know it was a different time, but these experienced pilots cited the retirement benefit at UPS was a lot better than if they stayed as Captains at their respective airlines..I've flown with all 3 of them recently and they said that even in hindsight they're still better off because of the retirement plan. They were all in their early to mid 40's age wise.

Interesting. Yeah if I do make the move hopefully it's the last. Spirits my third. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the job and have been very fortunate to upgrade very quickly but the money just isn't here and in not sure it will ever be.

I don't need to be the highest paid but it needs to be close. ULCCs can absolutely afford it without screwing up their precious CASM