Is this what it's come to?
 

I'll just leave this here...

Yikes.............

That was actually very common for the past decade. We were hiring folks with 251 hours and 26 multi. It met the legal mins at the time. Now it's just 1501TT with 26 multi to get into an RJ.

Yep. How soon they forget. I can remember jumpseating on regionals pre-911 and quite a few FOs had less than 500hrs TT. And it wasn't just the bottom of the barrel regionals.

If I remember correctly I had about 1200TT and 250ME when I got my first job flying twin T-Props over the Grand Canyon. No MEI, no CFII. This was in the early to mid 90's.

25 hours seems pretty low. I know a guy at United who got hired somewhere around '89-'90. He was an intern and in his 30's. He DID NOT have his multi when hired. Was told he needed it before he started class. Went and got his multi and had a whopping 10 hours when he started class!

GP

Take a look back into the 50s and 60s, when UAL was hiring 0 hour pilots and training them.

Also look at Lufthansa...0hrs to Airbus in record time.

Its time we get paid more and receive better benefits.

TEN

Look at all the F16 pilots hired by the airlines over the years, how much 'Multi Time' do you think they had when hired?

I remember some who had to get the 'Centerline Thrust' restriction removed when they checked out as F/O's!

B-52 pilots had to get the centerline thrust restriction removed too.

Yeah but a viper develops a little more character in a pilot than a C-172.

I had 50 multi and no mei either. Upgraded in 1.8 years, 1k 121, and 2500tt. You're going to create a thread about hours?

The regionals are a dangerous place to be learning how to fly a twin engine aircraft. I, myself got hired at a regional with 300 hours back in the 90s but we had a thorough sim evaluation and initial training was up or out attitude, no second chances..We were also required to do a turbine transition course in a beech 1900 level d sim...All before starting initial new hire training..With my whopping 300 hours I had 70 hours multi time..These minimums were for flightsafety academy interns/instructors..Normal mins for regionals were around 1200TT/200 multi and American Eagle and Business Express required 1500TT/300 multi..How times have changed..

Hmm... Euroland, Asia, Africa, South America. Yep... That about sums it up... 25 hours of multi and a type rating on the 737 or Airbus and off to a major carrier as a cadet. Nothing new... It's been that way for many years.

I had over 300 hours of "real life" multi-time when I got hired at my first 121 airline. Outside of the 15hours I spent getting my multi ticket, I never once used those "specialized" multi-techniques if you will, before I got hired. So in essence my experience at 15hrs or 300hrs flying my multi like a single was no different. Just an observation. YMMV

-2263

Hired at 525/33 ten years ago. Haven't died yet.

Little different...sort of...but

Careful with the Mojo.
Flight school I attended bragged about never having a crash and within 2 years, 2 crashes and 4 dead.

Yeah, that's a great comparison. :rolleyes:

Flew with lots of newhire FOs that had 200hrs when I was a brand new captain with only 1500TT in 2005. You figured out which FOs had a clue and which ones didn't relatively quickly.

But for a while it was the blind leading the blind and deaf. But we all survived it. The worst incident we had of a sub-2000hr total flight time between the two air crew was a crew that lost all their prop blades on one engine. They survived that one too and are both flying for major (AA and UAL) now.

At the end of the day it's not worth being a drama queen over this issue. If your sim partner can't perform to standard, then the new guy will be either recycled or released from training. And guess what Say Alt, same applies to you, even though have more than 25 hours of multi time.

Relax man. No one is trying to be a drama queen. Please forgive me if I think putting someone with 25 hrs multi-time into a high performance jet isn't a great idea. Has it been done? Sure. Good idea? I don't think so. We're talking about Mesa, after all.

You are in a great place, Say Alt, where you can impart knowledge to your sim partner, help raise his/her level, and most of all be supportive so they can understand the concept of team work, and CRM. If this is your first command as a 121, you can use all the positives and negatives when a F/O to help your sim partner out as you should have a good foundation as to what makes a good and not so good skipper. I'm sure they will be motivated to be a contributing member of your crew.

All the best and good luck with the upgrade.

Relax Capt. It's not my sim partner, although if it was you may rest assured I have, would, and will continue to do everything in my power to help as much as I can, regardless of how much or little time they have in their logbook.

Yeah, but in those situations the Capt is doing a lot more single-pilot flying than he or she ever should. Shhhh........don't tell the traveling public or the politicians or they might change more than just re-learning how to recover from a stall.

High performance jet vs low performance light twin, I wonder which one is harder to fly single engine, I'd say the twin. The avionics in a C172 can be more advanced than what is in an RJ or at least on the same level. Student pilots in 172s are flying RNAV approaches and using glass. After flying a light twin and moving to jets, I thought loss of an engine in a jet was pretty simple compare to a light twin. Multi time is almost pointless.

Wow! The narrow minded idiots on this forum!

Match the power and all is good! Only in tight taxi situations is differential power in play.

So you have 12 "engine outs" in 15 hours (really? it took 15 hours to get your multi?)

And you are better able to handle it 1000 hours later than the guy with 10 hours later, having had NO experience with it for at least a year?

You egocentric morons.

This.


Yes, you are. For any number of reasons, like familiarity/comfort with the aircraft & airspaces one regularly flies in, the radically improved SA 1000 hrs brings vs. low-time, etc, etc.


Is this really the majors forum??

We all know 'more time' is better than 'low time', but how much multi time is enough? The new FAR requires 1500tt, but no minimum of multi time, right? I'm guessing the training department is responsible for getting a guy with very little multi time up to speed on V1 cuts, as has always been the case.

Here's funny story for you. When I checked out as a 727 F/O, my sim partner, also checking out as a 727 F/O, was also a guard F15 pilot. On our first take off, I'm flying, the IP gives me an engine fire just past V1.

As I'm rotating, my sim partner is doing the memory items for the engine fire, to include pulling the fire handle and rotating to fire the bottle, as we are just lifting off the ground! To say he had 'fast hands' was an understatement. Well I was flailing wildly, with the sudden lost thrust, so at about 200' the IP hits the freeze button. He then looks to my sim partner and says, "What are you doing?".

"I'm doing the Engine Fire Boldface!".

IP says, "In an F15, maybe you do it that fast, but here, we wait until we have the airplane under control. Tim probably would have liked to have had that thrust right now, at least until we got to 1000'. These engines are on a pylon, you aren't sitting on top of them like in an F15."

So there was some 're-education' required in the transition to airline ops, even for a 'multi engine' F15 pilot with a few thousand hours of 'Multi Time'.

Training, Skill, and Experience trump total times any day of the week.

I seen guys/gals who claim to have 15,000TT, International Heavy Jet, Years of PIC in the Commuters and Check Running flying that I wouldn't let fly a ballon from the supermarket.

And I seen low time turboprop FOs do a fantastic job...Skills.

While speaking to a Legacy IOE CA,
He had a fresh FO straight out of training.
Its her (fo) takeoff and as they are rolling down the runway this CA looks over and sees her feet flat on the floor....hes says "Get you feet on those pedals!!!"

Once they get above 10k he questions her and what would she do if she had lost an engine.....her reply........."Thats what the rudder bias is for"

CA...." Holy Crap! What are they teaching you newhires in training??!?!?"

The 777 has Thrust Asymmetry Compensation. When it first came out, it was so good at putting in enough rudder to keep you going straight, some guys wouldn't realize they had lost an engine (in the sim) so the FAA made Boeing dial it back a bit, so now you do feel it when you lose one, but only a slight amount of rudder pedal input is required to keep it going straight, as opposed to a V1 cut with the "TAC Inop", which requires the usual amount.

On my 777 check ride, of course I got a V1 cut, but since we had been doing them with the TAC Inop for a week, I instinctively put in Waaayyy too much rudder, because on the chekride, the TAC was working! I told the IP,

"HEY, turn that thing off and I'll show you how it's done right!"

Talk about 'negative training'!

Another example of negative training, we had a crew who did lose an engine shortly after takeoff and the pilot flying hand flew it around the pattern and back for a landing. When someone doing an investigation asked him, "Why didn't you use the autopilot?" he said, "I forgot we were allowed to use that for an engine out!"

That was because on every checkride in the sim, we were required to demonstrate we could hand fly an engine out departure, approach, missed approach and back to a landing. So when it actually happened for real, he reverted to his training, which was to hand fly it.

Since that event several years ago, we are now 'allowed' (and required) to use the autopilot for an engine out approach, even an auto land, if the airplane is certified for it, and I'll bet you'd have to explain -why- to someone, if you didn't use it, to include an autoland, if wx conditions and winds were within limits.

You get what you pay for. Regional starting wages should require even less multi time.

50 hours multi for that resume will cost the new FO about 7 months of his first year salary...yeah, makes sense.

Timbo - similar event - 777 crew loses an engine. Lands SE. No problem.

At the post incident briefing - "very nice job. We just have one question, why'd you turn the TAC off?"

"SE requires the TAC off. That's the procedure."

Nope, that's how they taught it. Showed one TAC engine failure then all others were done with the TAC OFF. Guy thought TAC OFF was required. Negative transfer. Oops. Now training shows TAC OFF then the rest of the training is done with the TAC ON.

New hire red screened the sim on a type ride. FAA passed him. Yes this is the sign of the times.

After flight school you took a written test and got a commercial instrument centerline thrust ticket. A B-52 person.. at least a left seater... could take a copy of their B-52 checkride and FAA gave you a commercial, instrument, AMEL. BTW, the buff was a way bigger pita with an engine out than most.. with an outboard gone you nailed the rudder to the floor and "thought about" letting it out for a long while... thing would roll over. Unless of course you were joking? OFG

Even worse... Special needs crewmember were paired up with special F/Os and Check Airman for their PCs... Not limited to U.S. carriers. Goes on all over the world.:mad::mad:

That must be some G model stuff, because I got 1k in the -H, and it wasn't that bad. Two outboards out got your attention but it won't roll over with half rudder at speeds above region of reverse command. We just trim that sucker out and presto. Usually most ACs would ask to take out the trim for landing so you had better fidelity to handfly the thing into the runway. Now, 4 out on the same side is the one where you're likely toast and consideration is given to getting out of the aircraft in lieu of trying to put it back down. But the statistical odds of 4 out (non-combat damage, and let's be honest, these days... WHAT combat?) is a non-issue afaic. Inboard outs or combo outs on both sides at lower weights was a non-issue, as you could just pull back the mirror engine on the other side and presto, back to symmetric you are. Hell you could do it two for the outboard outs too, but the SEFE folks didn't like it because they wanted us to demonstrate rudder control for the checkride, which is fair enough for real-world heavyweight scenarios where you wouldn't have the luxury of mirroring the opposite engines. That was the thing you could do in the buff you can't on 4 or less engined airplanes. Pretty pimp actually.

As to the centerline restriction, the Buff doesn't have one, so if you turn in your AC Form 8 to get your multi-commercial, it comes clean. I didn't have much use for multi in my civilian side and already had CPL-IR-CFII in single engine land before the military, so I slacked off getting the multi-add until I was out of the community. But eventually I did bring it in, and the MEL was added to my CPL, no CL restriction. Had I not had a CPL before UPT, and attempted to mil comp out of UPT but before AC check in the Buff then yes, I would have been given a CPL-ME with CL restriction, due to the T-38.

Another interesting one is now as a 38 IP, I went with my latest form 8 to renew my CFI and asked the FSDO for an MEI on account of T-38 IP and got told no dice. So it turns out, a T-6 IP (I was one before the 38) can go and mil comp himself a CFI and a CFII, but a 38 guy can't even get the CFI (no single engine), only CFII stand-alone, on top of no MEI either. Talk about subverting the spirit of intent.

Yep. That's the FAA all right.

"We're not happy 'til you're not happy."

The new rule requires 50 hours of multi to get an ATP, 25 of which can be completed in simulator sessions during initial training. An ATP is required to be a crew member during p121 operations.

An airline transport pilot certificate requires that a pilot be 23 years of age and have 1,500 hours total time as a pilot. Pilots with fewer than 1,500 flight hours may qualify for a restricted privileges airline transport pilot certificate beginning at 21 years of age if they are a military-trained pilot, have a bachelor's degree with an aviation major, or have an associate's degree with an aviation major. The restricted privileges airline transport pilot certificate will also be available to pilots with 1,500 flight hours who are at least 21 years of age.

Old F-100 Boldface for the fire on take-off, Timbo, said, "maintain take-off thrust until safe ejection altitude. If on fire, eject". Point being, do NOTHING quick, Mr F-15 should have known that, apologies to Jeff.

GF