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Originally Posted by bunk22
(Post 701494)
I read a good book on Pappy Boyington before I came to Korea. Some folks gave it a bad review because the author shed some light on the man, meaning made him out to be human. His score of first 28, then 26 (official) is not even that. Looking at the Japanese records and AVG, he scored probably 2 air to air with the AVG and though listed as 22 with the Blacksheep, it's more half that. Probably 11 or 12 kills plus 2 in the AVG gives him 13 or 14 (which in itself is highly respectable). Regardless of that, it doesn't take away that he was a natural leader, an outstanding pilot, a fierce warrior who led his men in battle during difficult times. It wasn't always take-off, fly through cavu sky and engage. The Corsair's of the time had all sorts of maint issues, the weather in the south pacific can be dog**** (I've been there done that), disease and sickness, constant boredom followed by intense combat, takes its toll. I had more respect for the man after I read that book than I ever did. Because he didn't have 22 or 26 or 28 kills and was a leading ace means nothing. It was the man that was a legend. Same with Rall, Barkhorn or Hartman. No doubt they don't have their "official" kills but they were leaders of men, during horrible times and came through as respected warriors. That's what counts in my book. One of my favorite books of all time is Thunderbolt! by Robert S. Johnson - it is basically a diary of sorts/autobiography - what a book... and what a time to be thrown into air combat! I couldn't imagine having 20% of your primary class killed during training.... and then fighting for your life day after day - seeing your buds crash and burn - coming home with half an airplane - bailing out multiple times during your tour- no ejection seats, no G-suits, just a few .50 cals, 2300hp, and some guts.... wow!! (not to take anything away from the fighter guys now at all - because they're ready to do whatever it takes as well) |
Originally Posted by ryan1234
(Post 701639)
One of my favorite books of all time is Thunderbolt! by Robert S. Johnson - it is basically a diary of sorts/autobiography - what a book... and what a time to be thrown into air combat! I couldn't imagine having 20% of your primary class killed during training.... and then fighting for your life day after day - seeing your buds crash and burn - coming home with half an airplane - bailing out multiple times during your tour- no ejection seats, no G-suits, just a few .50 cals, 2300hp, and some guts.... wow!!
(not to take anything away from the fighter guys now at all - because they're ready to do whatever it takes as well) John B Lundstrom did some of the most credible work when it comes to detailed analysis of early Naval air combat from Feb 42-Dec 42. His two books are masterpieces of knowledge IMO. Some of our aces are not aces but it takes nothing away from their experience. Even legends like Joe Foss (the ranking Marine Corp) ace doesn't have 26 kills from the looks of it but that man was a bad ass and legend. I got to meet him years ago when I was an Ensign stashed at Top Gun in San Diego. From Aug 42 to Dec 42, the Marines claimed something along the lines of 340 kills but actually shot down about 170 or so (numbers aren't exact as I don't have the book in front of me). |
Originally Posted by bunk22
(Post 701736)
To me, that's what counts. The stuff these guys went through, the sacrifices. I know on another website, at least one guy was so distraught over the fact anyone could challenge an "offical" kill score. My point wasn't to change the score, it is what it is, just to point out many folks didn't have their claims. They are still the ultimate warriors in my book.
John B Lundstrom did some of the most credible work when it comes to detailed analysis of early Naval air combat from Feb 42-Dec 42. His two books are masterpieces of knowledge IMO. Some of our aces are not aces but it takes nothing away from their experience. Even legends like Joe Foss (the ranking Marine Corp) ace doesn't have 26 kills from the looks of it but that man was a bad ass and legend. I got to meet him years ago when I was an Ensign stashed at Top Gun in San Diego. From Aug 42 to Dec 42, the Marines claimed something along the lines of 340 kills but actually shot down about 170 or so (numbers aren't exact as I don't have the book in front of me). You really are itching for a whooping aren't you? USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 701744)
They may have only SHOT down 170 or so....but the others crapped themselves to death on the way back to base after tangling with the CORP............I mean CORPS! ;)
You really are itching for a whooping aren't you? USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by bunk22
(Post 702206)
Hey, all I know is met Joe Foss and he was the man!! Foss did scare the Japanese from a large scal aerial attack at one point during the war.
...There was a shortage of rubber at the time so the training squadrons had few tires for the aircraft - it resulted in some pilots getting as little as 9 hours in the F4F before going to the fight. Here is a short excerpt from the book: The planes were the best available at the time. They had blowers (superchargers) that were not supposed to be engaged below 10,000 feet. The blowers were wired open so that we could get the maximum power out of an aircraft on takeoff. That meant that an engine would last twenty-five to fifty hours before it blew up and had to be replaced. An engineering officer told me that the pressure on the cylinder walls was equivalent to sixty inches of mercury - a standing sixty inch column of mercury at sea level. The F4F didn't have electric fuel pumps. When you got up to 10,000 feet, you maintained fuel pressure with a pistol grip hand pump. Eight to ten seconds after you stopped pumping, the damned engine would quit. We would secure the throttle setting, then to maintain fuel pressure in the engine in order to get to altitude, we would fly with our left hand and pump with our right. The first planes didn't have any shoulder straps, so if you had to make a water landing, you were guaranteed ten to fifteen stitches on your forehead where it would hit the gunsight. We were so short on gasoline that we had to salvage it out of wrecked aircraft. We would have air raids and the cooks would go up into the hills for two hours. When it was time to eat, we never knew if there would be any food ready, but we really didn't care. I lost twenty-five pounds in five weeks.... |
Originally Posted by bubi352
(Post 701436)
It's amazing what these pilots have done. Can you imagine having 352 aerial victories (Erich Hartmann) under your belt at the age of 23 and this using guns only? I have listened to stories from Gunther Rall and read Erich Hartmann's book: The Blond Knight of Germany. I am not a military pilot but this one is a must read. His discipline and tactics are truly remarkable.
I remember reading what was the last interview ever given by Hartmann before he passed that was published in Military History magazine in the fall of 2002. It was pretty interesting. "The First and the Last" by Adolf Galland is a pretty good book also, although a little slow in some places. There was another book I read that detailed a lot about Marseille, Rall, Nowotny, Steinhoff, and a bunch of other Luftwaffe pilots. I thought the part about Marseille was good, especially how little ammo he expended per kill, |
You are right. In the book "The Blond Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann describes in detail his tactics: see-decide-attack-break. Truly fascinating. He always said a dogfight was a waste of time and energy. He preferred to ambush his enemy and fire at very close range unlike Marseille. Am wondering are any of their techniques taught today at the military?
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Originally Posted by bubi352
(Post 702926)
You are right. In the book "The Blond Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann describes in detail his tactics: see-decide-attack-break. Truly fascinating. He always said a dogfight was a waste of time and energy. He preferred to ambush his enemy and fire at very close range unlike Marseille.
As I remember, JM liked to get EXTREMELY close as well before shooting, hence the reason for such low ammo usage per kill. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 702900)
There was another book I read that detailed a lot about Marseille, Rall, Nowotny, Steinhoff, and a bunch of other Luftwaffe pilots. I thought the part about Marseille was good, especially how little ammo he expended per kill,
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Point-Blank
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 702950)
As I remember, JM liked to get EXTREMELY close as well before shooting, hence the reason for such low ammo usage per kill.
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