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Delta to stand alone?
Hot off the press. Curious to see who blinks - or not.
Delta Says Merger Principles With Northwest Haven't Been Met By PAULO PRADA February 26, 2008 4:44 p.m. In a sign of growing trouble for a proposed merger deal with Northwest Airlines Corp., top executives of Delta Air Lines Inc. Tuesday afternoon issued an internal memo saying that no "potential transaction meets all our principles." Summarizing the airline's priorities in any merger, including seniority protection for all its employees and keeping the airline headquartered in Atlanta, the memo said the airline will continue to focus on its "stand-alone plan" until all "these conditions are met." Signed by Richard Anderson, Delta's chief executive, and Ed Bastian, the airline's president and chief financial officer, the memo follows a recent impasse in discussions between Delta pilots and their counterparts at Northwest. Despite progress in merger talks among the two airlines' executives and financial advisers, people familiar with the situation say leaders of the pilots groups have been unable to find common ground on an agreement that would establish a common seniority list for the pilots of a combined airline. Without that agreement, those people said, the airlines are reluctant to merge because executives are wary of protracted labor disputes and contract negotiations that have troubled mergers in the airline industry in the past. Write to Paulo Prada at [email protected] |
This "Merger" stuff doesn't sound good to me.
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More negotiating in the press... standard anderson/steenland act. One of the first tenants is "establish random deadlines." Then there's "blame the greedy pilots", and "appeal to greedy senior guys to convince them to sell out the junior guys."
If the merger was good for the company last week, it will still be good for the company next week, and the week after. All this press is designed to force the NWA guys to cave on seniority. I'd rather not merge than accept a ridiculous seniority list. Personally, I don't see how we'll ever come up with a list that both sides can agree on. |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 328253)
Personally, I don't see how we'll ever come up with a list that both sides can agree on.
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328264)
Is that why your merger committee would rather go to arbitration?
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328264)
Is that why your merger committee would rather go to arbitration?
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Originally Posted by Jughead
(Post 328245)
Hot off the press. Curious to see who blinks - or not.
Delta Says Merger Principles With Northwest Haven't Been Met By PAULO PRADA February 26, 2008 4:44 p.m. In a sign of growing trouble for a proposed merger deal with Northwest Airlines Corp., top executives of Delta Air Lines Inc. Tuesday afternoon issued an internal memo saying that no "potential transaction meets all our principles." Summarizing the airline's priorities in any merger, including seniority protection for all its employees and keeping the airline headquartered in Atlanta, the memo said the airline will continue to focus on its "stand-alone plan" until all "these conditions are met." Signed by Richard Anderson, Delta's chief executive, and Ed Bastian, the airline's president and chief financial officer, the memo follows a recent impasse in discussions between Delta pilots and their counterparts at Northwest. Despite progress in merger talks among the two airlines' executives and financial advisers, people familiar with the situation say leaders of the pilots groups have been unable to find common ground on an agreement that would establish a common seniority list for the pilots of a combined airline. Without that agreement, those people said, the airlines are reluctant to merge because executives are wary of protracted labor disputes and contract negotiations that have troubled mergers in the airline industry in the past. Write to Paulo Prada at [email protected] Great News! I can't think of any Pilot group that needs a merger right now. If the company wants it bad enough, let them bring us back to pre 9/11 contracts! |
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328264)
Is that why your merger committee would rather go to arbitration?
I think it's a great idea. NWA pilots don't need DAL. A 30% raise is not worth 30 years of misappropriated seniority. In 5 years we will have been better of going it alone unless we get DOH. If they don't like it, I understand. I will lead the charge with a pin on my lapel. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by nw320driver
(Post 328318)
Not sure where you get the idea our merger committee wants arbitration. As a 12 year F/O who just got a bid to the B747. I don't want to be screwed by some arbitrator. Not sure what 12 years gets you at Delta, but here, it's DC9 Capt or Wide-body F/O. Within 25 of a upgrade A320 Capt, so hanging out as a F/O till then. I am willing to give up some seniorty if the fence is long enough. :eek: Just tired of eating sh*t in the right seat.
Here is the link to the whole article. http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/news...FREE&cm_ite=NA Transportation Delta-Northwest Deal Could Be in Jeopardy 02/26/08 - 04:38 PM EST CAL DAL LCC NWA UAUA CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The proposed merger between Delta(DAL - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) and Northwest (NWA - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) faces a potential collapse, sources say, for an unusual reason -- Northwest's pilots want to arbitrate seniority. Delta pilots oppose arbitration, which was shown in the 2005 merger between US Airways (LCC - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) and America West to be an unreliable method to protect pilots from severe career disruptions. |
Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 328329)
I think it's a great idea. NWA pilots don't need DAL. A 30% raise is not worth 30 years of misappropriated seniority.
In 5 years we will have been better of going it alone unless we get DOH. If they don't like it, I understand. I will lead the charge with a pin on my lapel. :rolleyes: I don't plan on staying that long (30 years), but I get what you are saying. No need get screwed for the rest of our careers, for some cash right now. |
Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 328329)
I think it's a great idea. NWA pilots don't need DAL. A 30% raise is not worth 30 years of misappropriated seniority.
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328344)
I say let's compete and may the better airline win. At this point, it could go either way. Better to be friendly rivals than bitter partners.
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Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 328329)
I think it's a great idea. NWA pilots don't need DAL. A 30% raise is not worth 30 years of misappropriated seniority.
In 5 years we will have been better of going it alone unless we get DOH. If they don't like it, I understand. I will lead the charge with a pin on my lapel. :rolleyes: Agreed - a 30% raise for you isn't worth 30 years of misappropriated seniority for me. |
The posting in MSP paper is the same BS. Here is a link:
http://www.startribune.com/local/15996522.html |
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328264)
Is that why your merger committee would rather go to arbitration?
DALPA has a better contract that NWAALPA, no doubt, but that doesn't necessarily make us the ugly girl at the dance. DAL is the one that came looking for a partner. This is definitely not a case of an aquiring airline saving a carrier on the verge of going out of business. NWA's profit margins have beaten DAL's (and every one else's) since bankruptcy. No reason for us to rush into a substandard deal, and no reason for an arbitrator to give us the USAir treatment. |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 328449)
DALPA has a better contract that NWAALPA, no doubt, but that doesn't necessarily make us the ugly girl at the dance. DAL is the one that came looking for a partner.
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[quote=newKnow;328329]I think it's a great idea. NWA pilots don't need DAL. A 30% raise is not worth 30 years of misappropriated seniority.
In 5 years we will have been better of going it alone unless we get DOH. If they don't like it, I understand. I will lead the charge with a pin on my lapel. :rolleyes: I agree 100%. I don't think too many Delta Pilots pilots want this deal either. After years of parking mainline aircraft we are currently hiring 70- 100 a month with new aircraft arriving arriving. We look at Northwest and see a lot of mainline aircraft that are going to parked. You guys look at DAL and see a lot of young captains with hardly any retirements - lets just all hope this deal falls through - its only designed to enrich the "money men" anyway. Scoop |
I'd say "Keep your Steenland your Steenland!" He hasn't earned a seat in the BOD yet.
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328332)
While I don't believe everything I read, it's interesting that they would write this. 12 years gets you close to or actually holding a line on the 767ER as captain..
I have been at DAL 11 years, and we don't have ANY "twelve year" pilots...the last group hired in the early 90s was Jan 92. The next group hired after that (after some years of stagnation and furlough) was October 96. I was fortunate enough to be hired right at the end of 96. I can not hold 767 captain of any sort anywhere. (Perhaps LAX just from the last bid, but if so it is a very recent novelty). I could be a VERY junior captain on the 737-800 in NYC, or the absolute plug in ATL, and nowhere else. I could hold a regular line as MD88 captain in most MD88 bases. I can just now hold a junior regular line on the 777, and pretty good ones on any other equipment. Hey, I got hired at a pretty good time, and I'm not complaining about my seniority--it isn't too bad. But this idea that "12 years at DAL gets you a line as an ER captain" is complete BS from the first syllable to the last. |
Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 328287)
Wanting to go into arbitration seems odd, I don't believe that. I do understand both groups arguments and don't see how there will be an agreement that satisfies each one equally. A few years of a pay raise, which NWA will be getting when the contract expires anyway, does not seems worth a career of bad SLI. JMHO
I'm curious. When in the 17 or so years that NW had fences up for the Republic pilots did the union come up with an agreement outside of arbitration? I'm talking about agreements in regard to seniority list/fence issues between Red book and Green book pilots. I haven't heard of one. I think there was about 26 arbitrated decisions during this period. If this is accurate then it doesn't look like NWALPA knows any other way then arbitration. It's easy to keep from taking the blame on a bad decision when you can blame on the arbitrator. |
I guess the real question must be asked will both pilot groups, thus both airlines, be better off in the long run if they combine into one? I don't know. I know if NWA stays alone, as a 12 year 330FO I am going to be moving up the list in the next 5-7 years significantly assuming, that Boeing can produce the 787, where the DAL list is going to be quite stagnant for some time. But will either NWA or DAL, as a separate enity, have the pricing power to price their product with respect to costs?
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Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 328507)
Bullsh!!t
I have been at DAL 11 years, and we don't have ANY "twelve year" pilots...the last group hired in the early 90s was Jan 92. The next group hired after that (after some years of stagnation and furlough) was October 96. I was fortunate enough to be hired right at the end of 96. I can not hold 767 captain of any sort anywhere. (Perhaps LAX just from the last bid, but if so it is a very recent novelty). I could be a VERY junior captain on the 737-800 in NYC, or the absolute plug in ATL, and nowhere else. I could hold a regular line as MD88 captain in most MD88 bases. I can just now hold a junior regular line on the 777, and pretty good ones on any other equipment. Hey, I got hired at a pretty good time, and I'm not complaining about my seniority--it isn't too bad. But this idea that "12 years at DAL gets you a line as an ER captain" is complete BS from the first syllable to the last. I'm at 18 years now and a junior reserve ER captain. I'm in this position way out of seniority because many pilots aren't willing to put up with reserve and NYC. I'm not complaining. I'm glad to be here and am fortunate that things have turned out as they have (so far). The mass exodus of senior Delta pilots due to impending bankruptcy and the ability to take a 50% lump sum with our loss of the DB plan ( I know we got something for the loss but I wasn't made whole) caused this movement and now I'm supposed to give this to someone else who at least got their DB plan hard frozen. |
How bout' DOH with an 18 year fence around ATL, LAX, NYC, SLC, and CVG.
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Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 328507)
Bullsh!!t
I have been at DAL 11 years, and we don't have ANY "twelve year" pilots...the last group hired in the early 90s was Jan 92. The next group hired after that (after some years of stagnation and furlough) was October 96. I was fortunate enough to be hired right at the end of 96. I can not hold 767 captain of any sort anywhere. (Perhaps LAX just from the last bid, but if so it is a very recent novelty). I could be a VERY junior captain on the 737-800 in NYC, or the absolute plug in ATL, and nowhere else. I could hold a regular line as MD88 captain in most MD88 bases. I can just now hold a junior regular line on the 777, and pretty good ones on any other equipment. Hey, I got hired at a pretty good time, and I'm not complaining about my seniority--it isn't too bad. But this idea that "12 years at DAL gets you a line as an ER captain" is complete BS from the first syllable to the last. If what you say is true then maybe we are not so far apart. The NWA 90's hiring began in 1995. Those 95 hires can hold: DC-9 Capt in all bases 320 CA in DTW and MSP 747-400 FO reserve (very close to block) '96 hires can hold the same except for 320 CA in DTW (its more senior) Thanks for your honesty. I've spent my time here at NWA watching the aftermath of a merger that happened 22 years ago. From what I heard ,they were fistfighting even with a list that was merged straight DOH (those fences were long and high for the green guys). We should make sure this gets done right. Good luck to us all. |
How bout' DOH with an 18 year fence around ATL, LAX, NYC, SLC, and CVG.
And for the NWA guys, DTW, MSP, MEM, ANC and of course the aircraft we have and have coming. So, if the 747-400/200 787, 330 go to ATL/NYC we can bid our seniority also, then I would take that in a heart beat, DOH with such fences. Remember, our arguement is that while DAL just had their attrition we are about to have ours and we have a whole bunch of widebody flying with 68 787s hitting the property along with what we already have. So, if you want to fence your flying/aircraft, no worries sign us up. |
How bout' DOH with an 18 year fence around ATL, LAX, NYC, SLC, and CVG.
And for the NWA guys, DTW, MSP, MEM, ANC and of course the aircraft we have and have coming. So, if the 747-400/200 787, 330 go to ATL/NYC we can bid our seniority also, then I would take that in a heart beat, DOH with such fences. Remember, our arguement is that while DAL just had their attrition we are about to have ours and we have a whole bunch of widebody flying with 68 787s hitting the property along with what we already have. So, if you want to fence your flying/aircraft, no worries sign us up.[/quote] |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 328253)
More negotiating in the press... standard anderson/steenland act. One of the first tenants is "establish random deadlines." Then there's "blame the greedy pilots", and "appeal to greedy senior guys to convince them to sell out the junior guys."
If the merger was good for the company last week, it will still be good for the company next week, and the week after. All this press is designed to force the NWA guys to cave on seniority. I'd rather not merge than accept a ridiculous seniority list. Personally, I don't see how we'll ever come up with a list that both sides can agree on. |
Originally Posted by sully606
(Post 328531)
To add to Herk's comments I made captain at 14 years. It could of been earlier but it would have been miserable with a young family etc.
I'm at 18 years now and a junior reserve ER captain. I'm in this position way out of seniority because many pilots aren't willing to put up with reserve and NYC. I'm not complaining. I'm glad to be here and am fortunate that things have turned out as they have (so far). The mass exodus of senior Delta pilots due to impending bankruptcy and the ability to take a 50% lump sum with our loss of the DB plan ( I know we got something for the loss but I wasn't made whole) caused this movement and now I'm supposed to give this to someone else who at least got their DB plan hard frozen. Looks like our '89 hires can hold 757 Capt. Which I have posted on other forums is not the typical 757 job (Europe, Asia, Hawaii) In my opinion, not too far off there either. The difference between our bottom 757 Captain and the last 1990 hire is a little over 300 numbers. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 328507)
But this idea that "12 years at DAL gets you a line as an ER captain" is complete BS from the first syllable to the last.
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Originally Posted by dtfl
(Post 328567)
Curious - why would you assume your MEC would be "caving?" Rumors on the DAL say DALs MEC approached the NWA MEC with a list that would keep everyone's seniority at +/- 0.5%. I dont understand how such an agreement would be caving.
The leaks are already creating dissention among the employees. Flight attendants are yelling at pilots for "holding up the deal." Senior pilots are touting the monetary improvements in the contract in an effort to sell the deal without the seniority integration piece. They know they are safe anyway and just want the extra money. Your relative seniority proposal sounds okay to me as long as it doesn't put any post 9/11 hires in front of any pre 9/11 hires. That might not be completely rational, but it's a deal breaker for me. |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 328649)
Your relative seniority proposal sounds okay to me as long as it doesn't put any post 9/11 hires in front of any pre 9/11 hires. That might not be completely rational, but it's a deal breaker for me.
slinky |
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 328571)
That's what happens when you believe everything you hear on the line. I stand corrected. You are right. I looked at the numbers from the projected category list and a 01/97 hire date gets you plug in LAX on the 76 domestic. It also gets you 73N in ATL and 11/97 gets you 73N in NYC. The most junior captain is M88 in NYC with a 7/00 date.
But it is not so good as urban legend would have you believe. |
Originally Posted by sully606
(Post 328531)
To add to Herk's comments I made captain at 14 years. It could of been earlier but it would have been miserable with a young family etc.
I'm at 18 years now and a junior reserve ER captain. I'm in this position way out of seniority because many pilots aren't willing to put up with reserve and NYC. I'm not complaining. I'm glad to be here and am fortunate that things have turned out as they have (so far). The mass exodus of senior Delta pilots due to impending bankruptcy and the ability to take a 50% lump sum with our loss of the DB plan ( I know we got something for the loss but I wasn't made whole) caused this movement and now I'm supposed to give this to someone else who at least got their DB plan hard frozen. |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 328649)
I don't have any details about the agreements being proposed. I'm just looking at the items that have been leaked to the press. Most of what I've read blames the NWA pilots for delaying the merger, therefore, it seems like the leaks are designed to put pressure on the NWA pilots. DAL guys might not be used to this, but NWA guys have been getting this kind of treatment from our management for a long time, so we recognize the intent of the press leaks pretty quickly. The people in MSP writing these articles are very connected to NWA managment. I don't think they do any independent research, they just regurgitate whatever their NWA contacts tell them. Then the wire services pick up the story and take it national and suddenly it's the gospel truth.
The leaks are already creating dissention among the employees. Flight attendants are yelling at pilots for "holding up the deal." Senior pilots are touting the monetary improvements in the contract in an effort to sell the deal without the seniority integration piece. They know they are safe anyway and just want the extra money. Your relative seniority proposal sounds okay to me as long as it doesn't put any post 9/11 hires in front of any pre 9/11 hires. That might not be completely rational, but it's a deal breaker for me. would that philosophy work if american and continental merged? are you worried that a delta new hire would be put in front of you because they have hired more than nwa and lowering your relative seniority? would you be for it if nwa new hires were put in front of some of delta's pre 9-11 hires. nwa has more senior pilots so the junior/newhire believe they should get something for that. |
Originally Posted by slinky
(Post 328654)
As a Newhire at Delta, last summer, I would think that pretty dumb also. The Newhires at both companies should just be DOH.
slinky would delta have even been hiring if the top pilots didn't jump ship before the bankrupcy? |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 328657)
Looks like I posted with a bit more "hostile" tone than I intended. Sorry about that! The bottom line is that DAL has had good movement the past few years, mostly due to the massive early retirement a couple of years ago.
But it is not so good as urban legend would have you believe. Thanks for the realistic info on your seniority. The urban legends has us all guessing. |
As far as I am concerned every new hire should be behind anyone that had to endure the pitfalls of post 9/11.
That is fair. |
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
(Post 328649)
Your relative seniority proposal sounds okay to me as long as it doesn't put any post 9/11 hires in front of any pre 9/11 hires. That might not be completely rational, but it's a deal breaker for me.
In this argument, you could be, say ~90 percent seniority at NWA. If you do merge with Delta, you demand at least, lets say ~80 percent seniority at the merged company if the highest post 9/11 Delta hire is at 81%. That's ridiculous, and your right, not rational. We're all very sorry 9/11 affected this industry so much, but guess what, that doesn't mean you have to take it out on the people who got hired post 9/11. Remember, you may have been furloughed and cut wages for 5-6 years, but there are other people out there who were unable to get hired for 5-6 years too since NWA and Delta weren't hiring. So don't try and make the guys who hadn't been hired yet take it in the rear again just because they were hired at another carrier. Everyone was affected by 9/11; not just young guys at the airlines, but regional guys, military guys all around were affected. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 328695)
As far as I am concerned every new hire should be behind anyone that had to endure the pitfalls of post 9/11.
That is fair. See my above post. Newsflash Einstein: We were all hurt by 9/11, not just you... |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 328695)
As far as I am concerned every new hire should be behind anyone that had to endure the pitfalls of post 9/11.
That is fair. I don't know about nwa furloughs but I heard that delta furloughs got longevity in pay. when they came back they came back at 6th year pay not 1st. if that is the case I would make the argument that delta/nwa new hires are still feeling the affects of 9/11 more so than the furloughs because they didn't get longevity like them. I would bet that everyone endured the affects of 911 unless you might be like superpilot who let everyone know that he is like 18 and the youngest guy in his class...;) |
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