Delta Only contract?
 

So, I am new, but what exactly are they trying to do or accomplish?

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...409&id=8458629

Delta talks with pilots may aid merger with Northwest: report
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc and Northwest Airlines could proceed with their merger announcement as early as next week if Delta's management wins in talks with its pilots, the Wall Street Journal said citing people familiar with the situation.
Merger talks between the two airlines cooled in March when pilots from both failed to agree on how seniority would work for the roughly 12,000 pilots in the combined carrier.
But it was reported recently that the airlines agreed to revive merger talks.
Delta and its pilots have been discussing a new contract that would be valid if the merger went through, but only for Delta aviators, the Journal said, citing people familiar with the talks.
Delta pilots are being asked to get rid of some restrictions in their current labor agreement to give the merged airline more flexibility, the Journal said.
The Northwest pilots' contract doesn't have as much restrictive language, the Journal reported, quoting sources familiar with the situation.
Delta is in talks with its pilots and hopes to reach an agreement by the end of the week, the report said citing people familiar with the situation. The faster both sets of pilots have the same contract and get on the same seniority list, the sooner the combined company can realize savings, the Journal said.
Delta representatives were not immediately available for comment.
A Northwest representative declined to comment.
(Reporting by Aarthi Sivaraman; Editing by David Cowell)
Copyright 2008 Reuters

Hardball 101
 

It's a pressure tactic, meant to force a negotiated seniority list. If they are bluffing, it is very dangerous -- if not, it's even more dangerous.

But is it a temp. contract for Delta pilots until after the merger and the a joint contract and list how to be reached, or does it mean 2 seperate pilot groups with 2 seperate contracts? If so, how long can that last, and why would just the Delta pilots get a sweet deal?

Can you say whipsaw...........

Its the DAL pilots try to undermine the NWA pilots. They are playing part in a Lorenzo business mentality, ALA CAL and EAL. DALALPA should be ashamed of themselves for contributing to mgmts attempt at union busting. Last i heard DAL and NWA are both ALPA, I guess DALALPA has forgotten. I think i am going to hurl in disgrace.

Not only has DALALPA screwed the pooch on scope they are now trying to bring the whipsawing to the majors level while also allowing more scope relief. PUKE


Nothing will tear down the DAL pilots image more than trying this.

wow, dale carnegie would be proud

A union busting side contract...I am sure that the Delta boys are smarter than that, they would not play into MGMTs hands.

Uh..... what DAL pooch screwing are you referring to? It's NWA lack of scope that has put you in this unenviable leverage-less position. Look we need to get together on this. I don't approve of screwing NWA pilots. What I approve of even less is allowing my career and livelihood to be jeopardized all because the NWA MEC doesn't have the wisdom to lead and would rather put my future in the hands of a bureaucrat.

I'm with totally with you if you mean that an agreement would mean allowing the "regionals to do ANY more of our flying! I hope we have all learned our lesson on that....... probably not.

I am all about trying to work together and bring unity back to our unions. That is something that has been lost over the years and is exactly whats wrong with ALPA right now. When it all breaks down we are supposed to be ALPA pilots first then individual MEC's. Its time for a change!

Totally agree with this.

I think both MEC/Pilot Groups need to get together on this. I am new to DAL, so my opinion is close to a grain of salt, however I don't think either group is in favor of seniority stapling. Arbitration has proven to be unsuccessful, if you need proof of this just look at the US/AWA integration.
Both groups needs to agree on an integration that works.

Looks like the leak is working.
Tell your respective MEC what you want. What you are willing to give up, and what you are not going to live with out. If a deal cannot be reached we see where this will go.

Suffice to say, I think that DALPA hold many if not all of the high cards. Kind of helps when the dealer is on your side.

How does DALPA hold the high cards or what are you referring to as high cards?

On a seperate issue, I would like to clarify something, reading all the posts I have gotten lost,
So Delta wants a relative list, meaning if you are 1000 then you should be equal in a joint merged list.
NWA wants a DOH list meaning you maybe 1000 but you may have several more yrs of DOH then 1000 at DAL.
If this is correct, then where is the stapling that NWA supposedly wants? I am not trying to spark anything here, I am just trying to figure out what is being accused and said. I understand both sides of not wanting one or the other.

If Delta pilots tried to accept a contract that was only beneficial to them, that would be a slap in the face to the other pilot group? I would hope there is more mature approaches and they would not screw the other group like that. Just b.c. it is thought one group holds more cards, doesn't mean you should deminish the others quality of life. Everyone is agreed (or atleast I hope) that everyone is going to feel screwed by this, but if its lopsided (or one group goes out of their way (by accepting a one sided contract) to screw the others), I can say there will be a lot of hostility. THAT IS NOT GOOD, again remeber we SHOULD be unified, not split! Again, I hope a more Mature approach and logic would be used by both sides!

I think that the staple was a rumor at best.
The slotted approach is the one that hurt you guys the most. That is why you rescinded it.
High cards because of what what the facts are. With this latest twist it is clear to see that management is playing with us this week. It will be our managers that run this mess, and probably our MEC that survives. That said, it is plausable to state that RA would like to keep us happy at a min. and all of us happy as a goal.
Personally all of this is a very strong approach to get the results that are warranted. It fear does it then so be it. I think we will find out very shortly if that worked.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

DALPA worked very hard to reach consensus with NWALPA. They bent over backward to be "fair". Bringing NWA immediately up to Delta payrates, DC contribution percentages, and work rules are examples. There was no transition. It was immediate and DALPA got nothing in return. NWALPA, OTOH, tried to get a "win" at every opportunity. When the two sides couldn't find a mutually acceptable position, each side then was on its own to do the best it could.

And thats where we sit.

Yep, until someone comes off of that mountain.

How did DALPA bend over backwards? I was under the assumption that the contract was proposed by Mgmt. I was not aware of any MEC neg that contract, so how does DALPA get credit for those contract changes? You say DALPA got nothing, werent you all getting a raise out of it as well? I am not trying to cause a spark of conflict, I just do not understand the argument. Pls explain with facts, I just want to understand both sides clearly.

It is my understanding that the PWA was proposed by DALPA and agreed to in concept by DAL management. But the SLI had to be attached as well.

OK, I stand corrected, but this does not to me appear that the DALPA bent over backwards to help NWA pilots, they made a better contract then what they had (for themselves), yes NWA's was behind, but this should not be leverage to a merged SL.

Mgmt certainly did not propose a contract. Everything in there was negotiated, as it always is, at least from what I've been told.

DALPA got nothing by bringing NWA up to the Delta PWA. That cost XX millions, with nothing in exchange. Then from there forward, all gains were split. DALPA's contract also currently expires 12/31/09; I think the NWA contract lasts until 12/31/11. So, absent a PWA agreement, NWA lives with their negotiated contract for another 44 months, DAL 20 months.

Did you net get a stronger company with more cash? Remember, NWA Pilots are at stake as well, You didnt get 3 billion in cash, routes, airplanes, etc. without the NWA pilots. So, if there was to be a merger, it was inevitable that NWA would be brought up to atleast your current contract. Did you think they would merge and then tell you that you were going down to our contract? NO, and to get all the pilots on board the company approved certain contract improvements. Whether it was neg by DAL or NWA, but this doesnt mean DAL bent over backwards to help NWA. Mgmt did by not telling you werer coming down to our contract.

True.
I think it is easy to see that DALPA is not playing by the ALPA play book of the past. This whole notion is a new idea. Get it done, hug and get on with it before the deal is announced. In theory it sounded good. Too bad both sides did not see it that way.
Even before the seniority lists were thrown together and compared, I though that relative seniority was the way to go. It makes the most sense. Keeps me in my seat you in yours. We are not penalized if we choose to move. I know for a fact with out an accountant or lawyer that what I see in my number will hold true for the rest of my career. Slotted or a re-renegotiated list in five to ten years does not.

Look at it this way. If we do this and get a new agreement and wait for NWA's section six to deal with the SLI, at least the top guys will be gone or on the way out making DOH or relative seniority a non issue.

They could of, but they wanted to keep the peace. If they would have done that we would not have been consulted first.
It may end up that way, but we are trying to find an easier softer way. But some could not and will not do this.

A question, I am not sparking an issue its just never been explained how does the relative list work. What happens if DAL pilot wants to move to a NWA base? Then what number is used?

This is one of the problems - airplanes. Just today it was announced that the 787 got delayed again. NW is shrinking, DAL is stagnent (parking some jets, but orders coming in as we speak to cancel this out). Where are all the DC-9 FO's going to go when they are parked? They will bump DAL FO's. NW has stopped hiring, is receiving no aircraft, and is parking aircraft. Yes there will be retirements and aircraft in the future but how many and when? Today NW is shrinking and DAL is not. DAL will also have more aircraft orders and pilot retirements in the future.
I personally do not like the idea of a seperate contract for DAL but from what I have heard from the MEC - the DAL pilots have been very reasonable so far and the NW MEC from the start has been very aggresive in its demands. I just hope we can work this out instead of being forced into a shotgun marriage type of agreement.
Scoop

If it is a relative list then you only have one number. It works like the one you have now. No one can bump you off category unless there is a displacement bid. This might actually help the NWA 9 guys get to where they want to be. RA and Co said no fences which means just that. You can bid what you want as long as there is an opening.

And more debt, and gas guzzling old airplanes, and an underfunded pension. Are we stronger? Not sure. Really? USAir is STILL below AWA payrates. Nothing is "inevitable"; its all negotiated. And that takes leverage, and there's only so much money to go around. Do you disagree that more cash went to NW pilots than DAL pilots to harmonize the contracts?

Can I have an amen.....

Ok, so if a DAL guy who is #500 with 20yr DOH and a NWA guy who is #1000 with 24yr DOH (using hypothetical #'s), and then the DAL guy wants to move bases and fly 747 and a vacancy comes open he can take it, who bids more senior on airplane?

Have you stood up and told your MEC and all Captains that you fly with that the treatment they gave the Republic guys was despicable? I have never heard any red book guys say "I'm not going to the 747 Captain slot at 18 years seniority. That would be immoral to the Republic guys with 30 years seniority!" Red book guys benefited off the green book guys since the merger happened and there was never an ounce of protest from the NWA herd. So please don't tell me that DALPA is reaching a new low by trying to benefit its group in a merger. Right now this is all theory. The Red book history is exactly that, factual history based on past actions.

But when the USAIR/AWA get a merged list are you saying they wont have one contract? Its Nego. when they are one list. and then everyone is on the same contract. ture or not?
And I think we do not see eye to eye on your gain, yes NWA pilots get more money (b.c. our contract pay rates are behind yours for now), but you also get a pay raise, a raise that would not happen without a merger. If DAL pilots take a contract without NWA pilots getting the same day 1, then you can be assured I will oppose any merger and will lobby DOJ and political officicials to stop/block a merger. You are saying its better to Divide each other so you (DAL) can gain, with or without NWA pilots. I am saying lets all be unified and then move on. Without it we are all doomed to fail.

It always make me giggle that you DAL guys always leave out the part about you parking planes and that the md80s are just as at risk as our dc9s.

No I have not, BECAUSE I WAS NOT AROUND DURING THAT MERGER, I am not a red book or a green book. I agree it was wrong, I think it speaks volumes on your character that you are willing to step to that level! You even said it was "despicable" but then you are willing to do it. WOW! AGAIN, that way of thinking is not going to get us anywhere. Shame on you for calling one person out and then defending yourself to do it to someone else!

AV8ER13,

A merged list with no fences, and a "no bump, no flush" provision means that yes, a DAL guy that wanted to fly a 747 400 could bid into it, but only if there is an opening from a retirement or "bid out." He could not "bump" a junior person out of a seat that he wants. Of course it would go the other way as well if there was an opening on a DAL jet. I'm not familiar with DAL's displacement bid process. We don't have separate award and displacement bids at NWA.

I say NWA or DAL guy, but hopefully if this merger goes through there will only be DAL guys and no more Red/Green/Blue/Delta/Real Delta crap going on.

Caveat all that with the fact that I have no idea what is actually being discussed. Lots of wild speculation and rumor here and elsewhere right now. Try not to get too caught up in it. Call or e-mail your reps.

I understand all that, but then would the DAL pilot be more senior within the fleet than the NWA pilot? Would he get his monthly bid for QOL before the NWA pilot?

If his seniority number is lower, yes.

Next question for the DAL guys...latest wacky rumor (at least I hope it's a wacky rumor) is that DAL is talking about giving up 100 seat scope as part of this negotiation so that the merged airline will be able to get rid of all the DC-9s. Have you guys heard that one, and if so, what do you think?

Step to what level? And who am I calling out? You are going around throwing stones at DALPA. I merely asked if you had protested to the NWA MEC or anyone you fly with on how the red book/green book was detrimental to many aviators within your ranks. My character is quite high if you knew me. But my character has nothing to do with closed door negotiations. As I understand it, your MEC wouldn't budge on the SLI issue. You would have gotten much more substantial increases in pay, working conditions, retirement, etc. than I would have on a percentage basis. Yet your negotiating team wanted one more benefit. Better seniority. That would have been screwed me. Are you defending that? Don't know. Let me know that you would have told your negotiating committee to pound sand if anything was done at the expense of the DAL pilot group.

If the merger is going to happen it is going to happen. If the bar is raised by one group the other will come up to it. If you raise it, great. If we do, fine. Either way, I don't want a merger where my seniority is significantly impacted with no increases in pay, working conditions, retirement, etc. If I hit the street so you can keep your job are you going to volunteer to be in my place? Failure to do so means that you look out for yourself and your family. And I wouldn't blame you. I'd do the same. The problem is we live in a world where pilots are extremely territorial. We're all for the profession until we have to personally sacrifice. You voted for your MEC. They will defend you. I voted for mine. So I expect them to protect me.

Better not be true, the DAL guys already screwed the pooch for the whole industry the first time with scope and we dont need round 2. DAL guys? Tell me you learned from the last time!

I hope we're all smarter than that. Pandora's box was opened in '92 when the first RJ hit the skies. Thousands of aircraft later there is no closing it. Let's hope they don't ever relax scope again. I will do so only for $2,000,000. That's what I figure I would lose while on furlough and lost time for upgrade, etc.

This is something i think both pilot groups know CAN NOT happen. We are in complete agreement.:D

I didnt say whether DAL or NWA's proposed mergerd list was better, what I said is if one side feels they get more of a say then that is what is wrong. And you say NWA wanted one more benefit, Again, I am not saying which is better (I am playind devils advocate), but did the NWA pilots not earn senority through DOH. Tell me its fair that a guy who has less yrs of service with either company gets to be more senior at the new company just b.c. their pilot group bailed when they could. Vice versa, it sucks have great senority and being told by someone who has a high DOH that he is going to push you down. Both angles SUCK! I dont get a say, I am a recent new hire at NWA and I know where I fall on the SLI. What makes me frustrated is reading that you feel b.c. you work for DAL that you vote counts more than mine (even though I do not have one now). You know what I mean, this threat was not started as a bash on DAL or NWA, the thread was about an article saying DAL mgmt is trying to agree only with DAL pilots and leave NWA out. Thats not fair, and I would be heart broken if any DAL pilot that thinks thats fair!