Contract issues
06-09-2008, 11:39 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
Make no mistake, there are enough pilots out there who would cross a picket line.
The public won't care about the picket lines. The politicians might use it as an excuse to legalize cabotage. ALPA wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
Our contracts would be immediately (and legally) voided, and we'd be screwed. It would take decades to get everything we have now, meager as it is, back...if ever.
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 06-09-2008 at 12:53 PM.
06-09-2008, 12:37 PM
#22
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
Or you can be so in love with defeat that you do your opponent's work for him and never attempt anything, and lose again by default.
06-09-2008, 01:48 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
There is a very good chance that we will need to strike illegally at some point in our careers...Especially if McClown gets into power....Yes then we will need to get a change away from the RLA and in the ideal go for a more maritime like structure.....As far as illegal strike action goes we must remember that the laws in this country are written by lobbyists for the rich people and or corporations so that they stay rich and we will be prevented from having any legal actions that will succeed.....In other words anything that we can do that will work to advantage us (like an SOS) is illegal. That means that if we stay within the law (in this case the RLA) we are doomed to lose by default.... The past 30 years we have a classic situation of abiding by the law of the land and consistantly losing, sometimes a little and calling it a victory and sometimes severely and calling it the loss it was. The consistant thing was loss. Albert Einstein once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, it is time we got over this risk averse posture of always abiding by the letter of the law. Besides there is little left to do to us that the industry hasn't already done, except maybe shave our heads.
06-12-2008, 05:28 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
By KELLY YAMANOUCHI
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/11/08
It's just what Delta Air Lines executives were trying to avoid. In the wake of failed attempts to reach a joint agreement with Delta and Northwest Airlines pilots before the carriers' merger announcement, discord is growing between Northwest pilots and their national union, which also represents Delta pilots.
The Delta-Northwest merger was announced in April with a proposed deal for Delta's roughly 7,000 pilots but no deal with Northwest's 5,000. The two pilot groups had reached an impasse over how to integrate their seniority lists.
If the merger is granted regulatory approval, it is expected to close by the end of the year.
But Northwest pilots have come into conflict with the head of the Air Line Pilots Association International because the proposed deal includes annual pay raises and an equity stake for Delta pilots. Both unions are separate units of ALPA.
The Northwest pilots' union leadership said it asked ALPA International President John Prater not to sign the Delta pilots' labor agreement.
"Northwest pilots were kind of left standing on the side" after Delta pilots ratified the agreement, Minneapolis airline consultant Terry Trippler said. "What they're trying to say is, 'Don't sign that contract, let's try to renegotiate one that includes all of us.' "
In spite of their objections, Prater signed the contract May 30, according to the Northwest pilots union in a message to members.
Now, "you have a situation where different locals of the same union are vying with each other," said Gary Chaison, professor of labor relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.. "You have Northwest pilots believing they're at a disadvantageous position relative to the other agreement."
ALPA International said in a written statement that "we have every reason to believe [a joint agreement] can be accomplished."
Delta's pilots union said Prater had already signed a transaction framework agreement that obligated him to sign the contract.
Kelly Regus, a spokeswoman for the Delta pilots group, said the contract "set the bar" for a joint agreement, which is expected to address pay and work rules. That would be followed by negotiations on seniority lists, one of the stickiest issues in a merger. Pilot seniority can affect furloughs and can influence everything from pay to work schedules.
Northwest pilots want the same pay as Delta pilots as soon as the deal closes, but Delta management plans to propose a phase-in of pay increases, according to the Northwest pilots. Delta executives have met with Northwest pilot union leaders, and meetings with negotiators are scheduled for this month.
To some, it appears the friction between the two pilot groups could lead to the type of conflict that has affected the US Airways-America West merger for more than two years because pilots were unable to agree on how to integrate seniority lists.
The two pilot groups still work under separate contracts and are now represented by different unions.
"There's only one way to describe it, and that's a mess," Chaison said. "It does indicate that even the best merger plans don't work out because of the rivalry between unions and the rivalry within unions."
"We wish the national ALPA union had more set, concrete guidelines" to use during mergers, said James Ray, a spokesman for the US Airline Pilots Association. "The Northwest pilots leadership was probably educated by the situation we had."
In the proposed Delta-Northwest merger, "there could easily be legal challenges and a lot of problems. And there could be a feeling that they need separate union representation," Chaison said. "America West and US Air indicate how messy [mergers] can be in terms of labor relations."
Delta officials have said they still hope to reach a joint contract with the pilots before the merger is approved.
And while all the parties say they are interested in a deal, they have conflicting interests, experts say. Though Delta may gain a better chance at labor peace by reaching a joint agreement, such a deal could be more costly to the company if it must increase pay for both groups of pilots.
"Put yourself in [Delta management's] shoes — are you in a hurry?" Ray said. But "if your labor group is not happy, your service suffers. ... I hope they don't have to go through the same thing we went through."
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/11/08
It's just what Delta Air Lines executives were trying to avoid. In the wake of failed attempts to reach a joint agreement with Delta and Northwest Airlines pilots before the carriers' merger announcement, discord is growing between Northwest pilots and their national union, which also represents Delta pilots.
The Delta-Northwest merger was announced in April with a proposed deal for Delta's roughly 7,000 pilots but no deal with Northwest's 5,000. The two pilot groups had reached an impasse over how to integrate their seniority lists.
If the merger is granted regulatory approval, it is expected to close by the end of the year.
But Northwest pilots have come into conflict with the head of the Air Line Pilots Association International because the proposed deal includes annual pay raises and an equity stake for Delta pilots. Both unions are separate units of ALPA.
The Northwest pilots' union leadership said it asked ALPA International President John Prater not to sign the Delta pilots' labor agreement.
"Northwest pilots were kind of left standing on the side" after Delta pilots ratified the agreement, Minneapolis airline consultant Terry Trippler said. "What they're trying to say is, 'Don't sign that contract, let's try to renegotiate one that includes all of us.' "
In spite of their objections, Prater signed the contract May 30, according to the Northwest pilots union in a message to members.
Now, "you have a situation where different locals of the same union are vying with each other," said Gary Chaison, professor of labor relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.. "You have Northwest pilots believing they're at a disadvantageous position relative to the other agreement."
ALPA International said in a written statement that "we have every reason to believe [a joint agreement] can be accomplished."
Delta's pilots union said Prater had already signed a transaction framework agreement that obligated him to sign the contract.
Kelly Regus, a spokeswoman for the Delta pilots group, said the contract "set the bar" for a joint agreement, which is expected to address pay and work rules. That would be followed by negotiations on seniority lists, one of the stickiest issues in a merger. Pilot seniority can affect furloughs and can influence everything from pay to work schedules.
Northwest pilots want the same pay as Delta pilots as soon as the deal closes, but Delta management plans to propose a phase-in of pay increases, according to the Northwest pilots. Delta executives have met with Northwest pilot union leaders, and meetings with negotiators are scheduled for this month.
To some, it appears the friction between the two pilot groups could lead to the type of conflict that has affected the US Airways-America West merger for more than two years because pilots were unable to agree on how to integrate seniority lists.
The two pilot groups still work under separate contracts and are now represented by different unions.
"There's only one way to describe it, and that's a mess," Chaison said. "It does indicate that even the best merger plans don't work out because of the rivalry between unions and the rivalry within unions."
"We wish the national ALPA union had more set, concrete guidelines" to use during mergers, said James Ray, a spokesman for the US Airline Pilots Association. "The Northwest pilots leadership was probably educated by the situation we had."
In the proposed Delta-Northwest merger, "there could easily be legal challenges and a lot of problems. And there could be a feeling that they need separate union representation," Chaison said. "America West and US Air indicate how messy [mergers] can be in terms of labor relations."
Delta officials have said they still hope to reach a joint contract with the pilots before the merger is approved.
And while all the parties say they are interested in a deal, they have conflicting interests, experts say. Though Delta may gain a better chance at labor peace by reaching a joint agreement, such a deal could be more costly to the company if it must increase pay for both groups of pilots.
"Put yourself in [Delta management's] shoes — are you in a hurry?" Ray said. But "if your labor group is not happy, your service suffers. ... I hope they don't have to go through the same thing we went through."
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 06-12-2008 at 05:53 AM.
06-12-2008, 05:33 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
by KELLY YAMANOUCHI
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/11/08
Union negotiators representing pilots from Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines met Wednesday in Atlanta to continue discussions for joint contract negotiations with Delta.
Atlanta-based Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest are working toward their proposed merger announced in April.
Delta's pilots ratified a labor agreement in May that includes annual pay raises, which would take effect if the merger is completed.
Northwest's pilots union leadership has told members it wants immediate pay parity. Lee Moak, chairman of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association unit, said: "I'm confident that will be the joint position of the team."
In a filing to the U.S. Department of Transportation last week, Northwest's pilots union said that, without a contract including Northwest pilots, "the annual costs from labor friction in both Delta's and Northwest's pilot groups will be substantial, and the supposed gains from the merger will only diminish."
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/11/08
Union negotiators representing pilots from Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines met Wednesday in Atlanta to continue discussions for joint contract negotiations with Delta.
Atlanta-based Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest are working toward their proposed merger announced in April.
Delta's pilots ratified a labor agreement in May that includes annual pay raises, which would take effect if the merger is completed.
Northwest's pilots union leadership has told members it wants immediate pay parity. Lee Moak, chairman of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association unit, said: "I'm confident that will be the joint position of the team."
In a filing to the U.S. Department of Transportation last week, Northwest's pilots union said that, without a contract including Northwest pilots, "the annual costs from labor friction in both Delta's and Northwest's pilot groups will be substantial, and the supposed gains from the merger will only diminish."
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 06-12-2008 at 05:55 AM.
06-26-2008, 01:46 AM
#26
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Delta guys,
What is really the deal with hats? I was walking through Atlanta the other day and saw my first Delta pilot walking down the terminal without a hat. Do the chief pilots demand 100% compliance, or are you slapped with double secret probation? We used to have a hat "hall monitor" in the chief's office at NWA - he could have had is retirement party in a phone booth and had room to spare.
Carl
What is really the deal with hats? I was walking through Atlanta the other day and saw my first Delta pilot walking down the terminal without a hat. Do the chief pilots demand 100% compliance, or are you slapped with double secret probation? We used to have a hat "hall monitor" in the chief's office at NWA - he could have had is retirement party in a phone booth and had room to spare.
Carl
06-26-2008, 03:40 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Against
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Delta guys,
What is really the deal with hats? I was walking through Atlanta the other day and saw my first Delta pilot walking down the terminal without a hat. Do the chief pilots demand 100% compliance, or are you slapped with double secret probation? We used to have a hat "hall monitor" in the chief's office at NWA - he could have had is retirement party in a phone booth and had room to spare.
Carl
What is really the deal with hats? I was walking through Atlanta the other day and saw my first Delta pilot walking down the terminal without a hat. Do the chief pilots demand 100% compliance, or are you slapped with double secret probation? We used to have a hat "hall monitor" in the chief's office at NWA - he could have had is retirement party in a phone booth and had room to spare.
Carl
06-26-2008, 05:22 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Delta guys,
What is really the deal with hats? I was walking through Atlanta the other day and saw my first Delta pilot walking down the terminal without a hat. Do the chief pilots demand 100% compliance, or are you slapped with double secret probation? We used to have a hat "hall monitor" in the chief's office at NWA - he could have had is retirement party in a phone booth and had room to spare.
Carl
What is really the deal with hats? I was walking through Atlanta the other day and saw my first Delta pilot walking down the terminal without a hat. Do the chief pilots demand 100% compliance, or are you slapped with double secret probation? We used to have a hat "hall monitor" in the chief's office at NWA - he could have had is retirement party in a phone booth and had room to spare.
Carl
That said, both sides go overboard on the issue. The chief pilot types who look for the no-hat guys are truly petty little dictator wannabes who evidently have nothing better to do. Also, what is worse: a fat slob whose shirt looks ten years old and hasn't shined his shoes in months (but at least has his hat on!), or a sharp-looking guy who just happens to not have a hat?
Most amusing are all the RJ sorts who are their own greatest fans. They rarely wear hats; I saw one who had his Raybans threaded through his epaulets on his shirt (?), and they all seem to schlep backpacks over their shoulders while strolling down the concourse with iPod earbuds in said ears.
Bottom line: both sides lighten up. If you are so petty that you won't wear a hat when your company requests it--you have issues. Simultaneously, if you are so petty that the only thing that screws you into the ceiling is someone not wearing a hat--YOU have issues.
06-26-2008, 06:50 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
It is kind of a mixed bag. We keep claiming how our strong skills and professionalism merit strong pay and benefit packages (which they do). If we claim that, then we should look sharp in the uniform, which includes the hat. I personally don't like it, but I will wear it because it is part of the uniform and the company requests it. I am alway amused by the no-hat crowd who somehow think they are the moral equivalent to our founding fathers by not wearing it, as if they are somehow striking a blow for freedom or something.
That said, both sides go overboard on the issue. The chief pilot types who look for the no-hat guys are truly petty little dictator wannabes who evidently have nothing better to do. Also, what is worse: a fat slob whose shirt looks ten years old and hasn't shined his shoes in months (but at least has his hat on!), or a sharp-looking guy who just happens to not have a hat?
Most amusing are all the RJ sorts who are their own greatest fans. They rarely wear hats; I saw one who had his Raybans threaded through his epaulets on his shirt (?), and they all seem to schlep backpacks over their shoulders while strolling down the concourse with iPod earbuds in said ears.
Bottom line: both sides lighten up. If you are so petty that you won't wear a hat when your company requests it--you have issues. Simultaneously, if you are so petty that the only thing that screws you into the ceiling is someone not wearing a hat--YOU have issues.
That said, both sides go overboard on the issue. The chief pilot types who look for the no-hat guys are truly petty little dictator wannabes who evidently have nothing better to do. Also, what is worse: a fat slob whose shirt looks ten years old and hasn't shined his shoes in months (but at least has his hat on!), or a sharp-looking guy who just happens to not have a hat?
Most amusing are all the RJ sorts who are their own greatest fans. They rarely wear hats; I saw one who had his Raybans threaded through his epaulets on his shirt (?), and they all seem to schlep backpacks over their shoulders while strolling down the concourse with iPod earbuds in said ears.
Bottom line: both sides lighten up. If you are so petty that you won't wear a hat when your company requests it--you have issues. Simultaneously, if you are so petty that the only thing that screws you into the ceiling is someone not wearing a hat--YOU have issues.
I would prefer to keep them optional, but if required to wear one I will......just like I did when NWA required them.
Do you think a majority of Delta guys would support a request to make the hat optional? Not being pushy, just wondering.
Ferd
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