6.5% vs. 11%
 

Ok, so with the contract going to the pilots for vote, can anyone explain to me why NWA pilots would accept a 6.5% direct contribution and DAL would maintain 11%? I understand we have some fully vested guys at the top, but for those of us on the bottom with no defined benefits whatsoever, how can this be acceptable. Better yet, how is one to plan and prepare for the future with that kind of a match. My last regional airline put in 6%... This must be a f joke.

I believe we are keeping the MPP for the guys with no/low DB.

does nwa catch up over the 4 years.

so once your combined and you hire (like some think) the new hires will be getting a better dc plan. I thought there was suppose to be parity?

Okay, so my 4.5% less DC is to fund the guys with "reduced" benefits coming over from the NWA side?

Hello .82, two engine taxi and APU on for safety.

I guess you don't understand your own plan.

Those guys at the top with DB greater than 50% are getting ZERO in DC because of targeting. You, however, are probably getting a lot more than 6.5%, as the money those senior guys would otherwise be getting is being allocated to you.

The total pot of money being given to NWA pilots (DB funding plus DC funding) is probably greater than the total pot of money being paid to Delta pilots through DC in this contract. Are you sure you want to whine about what you're bringing over?

So back at ya. Can you explain to me why a Delta guy would accept NWA pilots being given more in retirement than they are?:p

Rotorhead, I would suggest you ask your negotiating committee these questions. My understanding however is that because NWA still has their A plan it was decided to phase in the Delta DC plan. After the merger is complete and the phase in over NWA pilots will get more ongoing funding each year to retirement then Delta pilots. They will get the same DC funding as well as the annual payments required to make up for the 1.8 billion dollar funding shortage in the A plan. Some pilots at Delta view that as unfair.

Sailingfun,
You need to go to the DALPA forum. Roger White, the R&I guy, has a thread explaining how it is even.

Yeah, cause that is smart with $140 oil.

You got that one right! But I wouldn't worry too much he is in the right seat so the PIC has to agree and hopefully that won't happen.....

Hey Rotorhead, Slowplay is 100% correct and YOU know it.

NWALPA decided it was fair to take my DC plan and give it to you. How about this for a response from you: "Thank you very much for helping out us junior pilots...I'll just shut up now and try to learn something. Sincerely, Rotorhead."

Feel free to copy this and paste it as often as you like.

Carl

Carl, GMAFB. NWA ALPA didn't decide it was fair to take "your" DC plan and give it to the junior pilots. From your previous posts it's obvious you were a yes voter. That means you agreed to the entire POS TA which we now have (which by the way spelled out how the new retirement system would work). It is you who should thank the junior pilots for saving your retirement. Please don't try to rewrite history on this board. You pulled up the ladder and now must live with your decision to vote yes!

Carl,
Even with your DC money I will get about 37% FAE at my reduced rate when I retire.
What are you getting?
Oh, and thank you so much from a junior pilot.
IM

what is it that they are getting over and above the 6.5%?

First off, I voted NO. Secondly, the POS TA did NOT spell out that all DC monies would be taken from the top half and given to the bottom half. If you think the TA said that, post your proof. The TA is in writing. Show me where it said that? If I'm rewriting history, it should be easy for you to prove

I'm sending the bottom half of the NWA list ALL of my DC money, yet I need to thank YOU for saving MY pension? Alrighty then.

I don't think the average junior NWA pilot is so ungrateful and filled with an infinite entitlement complex such as your's. It would be nice to exempt the massively ungrateful types such as yourself.

Carl

Why is that IM? Could it be because I've been here over 25 years and you haven't? I'd love to have a military pension because it's guaranteed and I would never have to worry about the PBGC. Just one problem, I'm not eligible for one under the rules of military pensions. You're getting what you are getting because that was the rules that pertained to everyone (including me when I had your length of service).

As you correctly state 37% is better than you would have gotten without being given ALL the DC contributions from people like me. Your welcome.

And by the way, I think I'll get about 51% FAE.

Carl

Carl what will a new hire nwa pilot have at the end of their career if it was the same length of your time? will it be more or less then what you are getting? I don't know the answer that's why I am asking.

eric

The way I see it is you have a frozen DB plan and a frozen DC plan because you will retire with more $ (51%) then our contract says we should have at retirement.
I wont have a military pension either and I will have 25+ years of service just like you when I retire. And I will still only have 37% FAE even with "your" money.
I think it would have been better to dump your pension and have better work rules and pay now like Delta does. Then I also would not have to listen to you tell us how much we should be kissing you but.
IM

How much will the bonds Delta took out when they terminated the pension cost the new company?

Eric,
The question should be: What will a junior NWA pilot hired under the same contract as Carl get at retirement? It was 60% FAE, then after BK it went to 50%. Somehow I'm projected to get 37%. And Carl thinks I owe him a big thank you.
IM

There were no bonds issued when the pension terminated. PBGC got paid a claim of $225 million cash and a stock claim of $2.2 billion. As part of our bankruptcy contract Delta pilots got an equity claim of $2.1 billon and a cash payout of $650 million. The equity claim got sold for 60 cents on the dollar.

When Delta terminated the pension it was turned over to the PBGC. There were no bonds issued. The PBGC got a cash claim and a equity stake in Delta. The ongoing costs to Delta for the pilot pension plan since the exit are zero. The only retirement costs the company pays are now the DC plan. Once the merger is completed Delta will have to continue the DC payments and fund the NWA A plan which has a current shortfall of about 1.8 billion. With returns on fund investments in the 7 percent range the required funding per year is estimated at 20 to 30 million. If the fund does not do well on the investment side then the required funding could be substantially higher.

Hard to say Eric. My DB pension can vanish if there is another bankruptcy. The DC plan is in your name and can't be touched. My DC plan has no money in it because 100% is being transferred to the bottom half of our seniority list at NWA. If they managed their money right, they could probably come very close at the end of a career. The big thing would be that it's their money, not some BS promise of a DB plan.

Carl

Very good. And of course you'll feel the same way when you have about 5 years left to retirement and some bottom of the list guy says: "we should just dump these senior pukes DC plan, distribute "their" money evenly to the rest of us, stop funding it, then use that money to get better pay and work rules for the rest of us." You'll be totally consistent and say: "sure guys, sounds great to me. I never planned to have any retirement money anyway."

Your sense of entitlement, greed and thoughtlessness is matched only by your lack of any gratitude.

Carl

Carl my man, you are right on the money on this (pun intended). I left DAL at 52 and 25 years. I got a fair lump sum, but am underwater with the PBGC and get bumpus from them. Therefore I get zero from my DB annuity. So after the termination of our pension I received 50% of my promised pension (60% FAE). In essence a 30% retirement. My point? Anything in one's own name is better than anything in a DB plan these days, just ask us retired DAL guys, the United guys, and the USAir guys.

Exactly right. That's why the top half of the list at NWA is a little sensitive. We are funding a DC plan for the bottom half of the NWA list only, and the top half is left only with a DB plan. But that's life...stuff happens. The sensitivity comes when these same bottom half folks chide us for not doing enough for them. Kind of like living with an ungrateful teenager in the family.

Carl

Carl,
The junior guys voted yes to a POS contract to save as much of your pension as possible. They did not say lets divide up there DB plan and give it to the junior guys. You still have $ in your frozen DB plan. It is not as much as promised. But it's more then 50% right? You make it sound like you are getting nothing.The junior guys could say the same thing to you about gratitude.

You also mentioned a sense of entitlement? You said you will get about 50%, I'm going to get about 37%. I think the contract says they will try to get us all as close to 50% as possible. If they give you more $ like you want, I will get less then 37%. How is that fair? Who did you say had a sense of entitlement?

I have no sense of entitlement, nor am I greedy. And I have given this a lot of thought and think if you are going to get 50%+, I should get close to 50% also. Don't you?
IM

You've GOT to be kidding! You mean it didn't have anything to do with our own union saying that the next "offer" will be from the bankruptcy judge and it will probably be considerably worse and allow the company to furlough many pilots?

I was laboring under such a misperception. I thought the junior guys were worried about getting furloughed if they didn't vote yes, and all along you were just concerned about my DB plan.

I'm giving this a rest with you IM. It serves no purpose. It is what it is.

Carl

"be considerably worse and allow the company to furlough many pilots?"
and dump the pensions.

I was going to say the same thing Carl. It's amazing, I agree with all of your other post. And actually enjoy watching you pick apart some of the most inaccurate ones. But we are going to have to agree we disagree.
Best of luck to all of us!
IM

Skyone, You need to get a lawyer and go after the company. They paid the other pilots in your situation quite a bit more then you got. The other pilots received the 50% lump plus between 100 and 120,000 from the MPP and a claim payout in Delta stock to offset some of the annuity loss. Most ended up in the 65 to 70% range on retirement. That is far more then most deadzoners will see. You should be getting something from the PBGC also. A friend almost exactly your age is getting 900 a month. Not much but it helps.

Carl it sucks that you guys can't take a lum sum. I once met someone who divorced his wife because that was the only way to get his frozen pension. Surprisingly they were remarried a few months later and with his full pension. :D

Talking to your reflection in the mirror again, Carl?

As is voting NO.

Voting "no" is actually probably the smarter move for DAL pilots. Very limited downside and huge potential upside. Management needs us for this merger. They'll need to come up with more goodies if they want us to play ball.

Goodies will have to be more fairly split.

How long have you been at DAL, less than 2 years? Management doesn't need you, because when they don't get the synergies they need they'll just can all of us. They'll be parking more than just some DC9s. And why can't you understand that a equal pay raise isn't possible if we are going to be on one contract?

Why are you so quick to give your MEC the FINGER after they UNANIMOUSLY ratified this TA because its the best we can do right now. You guys stood behind the MEC all the way through LOA 19 and now suddenly turn your backs on them :cool: This Speaks volumes about you NO voters who now are flipping off your Representatives!!:eek: This will get voted in because the vast majority of pilots are educated enough to know that we dont have anymore negotiating power with the economy the way it is, even YOUR MEC knows it. They have all the FACTs you DONT.

Couldn't agree more!!!! Its nice to see a level headed response in all of this babble.

Pay parity and work rule parity have to happen in any merger. There are various methods it can happen but its the first step before you can go forward. I still don't believe I will vote yes for the agreement because of the retirement section and the length of the agreement. I don't however have a problem with the allocation of money. If you are the lower payed airline you get a bonus. Its still benefits the higher paid side because you have to have all the players on the same sheet of paper if you are going to seek true improvements in the next contract. In addition having different pay rates smacks of a B-scale. I vowed I would never vote yes on any agreement that contained a B-scale. I have kept that vow.

Sailing,

As usual well thought out post. I voted no on our last contract over the lenght of the agreement so I can't fault your logic. Thanks for supporting parity.

Good luck,
Ferd

Sometimes it is more illustrative to note who is advocating a position than the position itself.

Keep up the good work Spaceman, you're a YES voter's best friend. :D

Carl

One of the biggest reasons I voted no was the length as well. Definitely can't fault that logic either.

Carl