Looks like we'll be letting the arbitrators decide then. The Delta team would be skewered for accepting your version of dynamic seniority.

Now if you wanted to include the BAD with the good, meaning both sides get credit for retirement attrition, and both sides get credit for fleet attrition, then it might work. That means for every 742, DC9 and 787 that leaves the fleet plan NWA pilots move down on "their" list, and for every 737 and 777 delivered DAL pilots move up. But I'm quite sure there'll be no negotiated list that only contains limited items favorable to NWA in the short and long term (retirement attrition and mid-length fences).

If you'll remember the February negotiations broke down over this very point.

Exactly, Slowplay. Well put.

PG

Carl,

A straight ratio is probably the fairest, but I think that using a dynamic list will create a mess for the categories in the future. So do you reshuffle EVERY category for the next umpteen years every time a pilot retires? You could never count on your relative position in a category month to month. Then there is the question about only making a list "dynamic" because of retirements. What about fleet retirements and previously announced growth airplanes. I think Delta guys lose if a dynamic list involves only retirements and the whole pilot group loses if we have to live under a dynamic list for years. Straight ratio and call it even for your nearterm retirements and our nearterm orders and mid to long term retirements

Cog

How about Dynamic only for early retirements? DAL guys keep saying early retirements won't happen, so they should be good with that, right?

I don't think Delta guys are saying they wont happen. Early retirements however have limited value depending on how old the pilot is when he goes out early. We were hearing from NWA pilots that upwards of 1000 pilots would leave before DCC. We now hear the actual number was in single digits. If the list goes DOH many of your current domestic narrow body captains will go from 15 days a month of domestic flying to 9 or 10 days a month of international with great layovers. I think many will stay. Historically only 50% of pilots however make it to age 60 anyway because of medical or check ride issues. Many early retirements at Delta occur after a pilot has a check ride. He is quietly taken aside and told that it would be in his best interest to retire early.

I keep seeing DAL guyspost how NWA. Pilots were saying 1000+ early retirements but I hven' actually been able to find any post stating this...... Can somebody show me where all these posts are?

And the search bar says....

from "NWA Furloughs" thread, post #14

So one post from one guy? Hardly seems like "NWA pilots" were saying this. Maybe what should me posted in "NWA pilot posted 1 time" :)

Come on, Carl, "studies have shown...."? To put it bluntly: What kind of dismissive B.S. is that? Very weak, Carl, and uncharacteristic of you. To cite "studies" to justify ignoring questions and comments that might be in opposition to your viewpoint is (...for the purposes of this august institution known as A.P.C. forums...) somewhat pedantic or doctrinaire, Carl. (yeah, I should know!:rolleyes:) Why don't you simply say: "Wiggy, we've agreed on very little in our exchanges, so when we disagree, let's just agree to disagree" or "Wiggy, I'm tired of arguing back and forth on these (somewhat) trivial topics, let's give it a rest." rather than: "Wiggy, I can read your mind and you don't 'listen to' or 'hear' my viewpoint, -therefore you do not deserve responses to your questions and comments." Now, on a lighter note, I see you've come off DOH a little bit, good!...welcome over to the real world of ratios, dude! (you'll be much happier here)....... just kidding, Carl..(;)) Dynamic lists... sounds complicated...I'll have to think about it for a while...It wouldn't surprise me if our negotiators might be talking about it, too. It might be familiar ground to them if the rumors about last March are true.....

For what it's worth, I have a buddy that is a professional mediator (family law, accidents etc.) and he says hands down that respective parties that do not come to the middle end up with a third party decision that, he says, for the majority is unacceptable to both sides. Thus, if neither DAL nor NWA are willing to move to the middle we will end up with an arbitrated agreement. So, while both sides emote how they are right in the arena of ideas we may end up with a decision that both sides hate. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

So, to my fellow NWAers and to DALPA, split our differences in half and call it a day.