You are the one that said we should be thanking Mesa pilots. I am the one saying they threw all the rest of us under the bus. That is all.

Winglet,
No disrespect or flame-bait intended, as I am thankful you keep us all informed with level headed news about MAG bk, BUT...

Don't you think it's difficult for ALPA at, say a ComAir or a Mesaba, to negotiate industry leading CBA's with the same management team (being wholly owned), when an outsourced carrier flying for the same mainline undercuts them? It's kinda' hard for the line pilot to, "support their fellow pilots" when he/she sees their aircraft parked and another DCI carrier occupying most of their gates.

While majors tout "One level of service", and ALPA "One level of safety", how about "One level of pay"? There is no reason ALPA carriers can't make it their mission to raise the bar by simply making it THE priority that if a contract is to be negotiatied, they take a look at what the industry will support, and use a benchmark "industry leading" contract. American Eagle, ExpressJet, ComAir, Mesaba, etc. could have a standard pay and work rules for every category of aircraft. No less!...I bet non-ALPA pilots would rush to certify ALPA...pipe-dream...maybe?

NoStep,

Don't you think it's difficult for ALPA at, say a Delta, to negotiate industry leading CBA's with the same management team, when wholly owned carriers like ComAir and Mesaba undercuts them? It's kinda' hard for the line pilot to, "support their fellow pilots" when he/she sees their aircraft parked and another Delta owned carrier occupying most of their gates.

Mesa is not the problem. The artificially lowered expectations of 'regional' pilots is.

Touche', "Sniper" ...and yes, I understand my statement was myopic in scope. Mea culpa...(when was the last time you so someone admit they're wrong at APC?)

An ideal situation would be a newhire f/o flies regional aircraft and has a number with the major from day 1. (I believe Pan Am did that...newhires flew Avro's or metro's (?-not sure) before moving up to sit sideways on the 727/707) I truly wish that were still the case.

The days of flying small turbo-props for low pay for a few years, building time to get to the majors went away with the advent of the regional jet.

The next best thing would be to bring up the standards at the regionals, bringing up QOL to just below the majors. That really is what I was getting at, especially since the regionals are becoming the last stop for more pilots.

Agreed.

The issue is not Mesa 'dragging down the industry', or anything so simple. The airline industry has razor thin margins, high government fees, and low revenue yields due to unrealistic pricing models (charge the customer less than it costs the business to supply the service). Labor has recently devalued their services to a point approaching poverty, helping to sustain this model.

The entire industry needs to take a 'mea culpa'. Customer expectations, labor expectations, management expectations, and government expectations need to change to support a sustainable industry. Part of this 'hard pill to swallow' involves pilots no longer propping up a system through continued devaluation of their labor.

Mesa's history is a microcosm of the industry. Start out small, focus on customer service to a niche market. Replace original management who was a 'dreamer' and proud of the product they produce with #'s based, short term profitability focused Wall Street pleaser. Lower costs to gain market share. Grow like a weed, losing control of your product, your costs, your customer service, and the trust of your employees, while leveraged at unsustainable debt ratios. This is the story of every airline to some extent, not just Mesa.

I wish it was so simple as simply 'blame Mesa' and ignorantly pile on them on an anonymous web forum.

NoStep,

Don't worry, I am not here to defend Mesa but the Mesa pilots, of which many probably agree with you (I can remember part of my paycheck going to a Comair strike fund at one time). I don't know any Mesa line pilots who condone or respect MAG management.

What I can tell you is that the pilots at Mesa have been trying for years to accomplish exactly what you suggest. Despite great odds, Mesa pilots have made small gains in their contract over time and their goal has always been to at least become "industry standard" to stop the whipsaw. Facing many obstacles, the Mesa pilots barely managed to stop an alter-ego in 2003 from demonstrating how to totally bust a union. If you think Mesa is bad imagine the proliferation of non-ALPA Freedom modeled airlines taking over the industry. Unfortunately the pilot advocates at ALPA are amateur volunteers while managment is willing to spend untold amounts on Harvard, Yale, and Columbia Business School anti-labor experts.

I would offer that the Mesa pilot group is no different than any other "regional" outsourced pilot group. This last contract was voted in by a Mesa pilot group that was approximately 50% 2007 new hires, many of which had no knowledge or interest in the history of labor/management strife much less how their vote can affect the entire industry. Many MAG pilots were just as disgusted with the voter turn out as the results. The difference is not the pilots but the managements that they have to endure. I'm sure most Mesa pilots would also like to see Mesa go away if guaranteed the flying was replaced by "mainline" flying and not just another outsourced airline. Unfortunately, you and I know that would never happen with the current industry strategies in place.

My point is that there will always be a "lowest bidder" when there are no industry barriers. Airline pilots are being attacked on all fronts. The cooperation of the ATA, RAA, and the FAA have eroded this profession to the core. Mainline pilot groups are being forced into relieving their scope through concessionary contracts as they are rapidly being replaced by outsourced pilots dubbed "regional" pilots. Until all airline pilots stop the infighting and wake up to the new reality, there is nothing to stop the RAA managements and their ilk from providing an endless succession of low bidders through the assistance of the ATA and the FAA.

As an alternative to attacking another pilot group, my suggestion to those who choose to scapegoat MAG ALPA pilots is to examine how the airline industry (RAA, ATA, and the FAA) cooperates and begin to come up with a better plan to counter them. Simply hoping Mesa goes away and is miraculously not replaced with a clone is a very poor plan to counter the problem.

winglet

As they say, if only pigs could fly...... and Delta pilots be able to fly CRJ2s for 100k per year. How exactly is your argument relevant? We we don't make the rules in this industry. There is a thing called the regionals which provide lift for majors, some would say undercut. We have no control over that. But we do have control over our contracts however which what this whole thread is about, that Mesa's contract was a drag on the industry. You guys are saying that this industry was destined to fail because of "artificial lowered expectations of pilots'. NO, it's pilots undercutting pilots that lowers the industry.

Well said. It's simple undercutting.

minimwage4,

Mesa pilots have as much control over their contract as you have over yours. They have as much control over the industry as you do and they control their management as much as you do. If you have so much control over your contract then put some "undercutter" barriers in it. Don't let your management dictate the terms just as other pilot groups are allowing thier management to write the rules. That is the key problem in this industry. Each pilot group is falling into the trap and letting management create the playing field.

Don't you understand that the entire wholly-owned vs. outsourced contractor vs. mainline model was set up by the industry to strengthen whipsaw to drive concessions? Do you think that Mesa's management might have taken advantage of 700 new hire pilot's first experience with a contract negotiation? There will always be an "undercutter". Mesa could go away and another will immediatley take its place.

You can choose to stereotype and misplace blame on one collective group or another for your problems or you can choose to focus on developing remedies to the problems and attempt to make improvements within your own house. Instead of spending your time being angry at the "bottom feeders" why don't you put pressure on the mainline pilots to scope out any replacement flying? If you are at a "wholly-owned" why don't you strengthen your flow through clauses? Not that easy is it? Refuse to let your management use comparisons with the latest low bid figures to dictate your terms. Get your heads together on your side and develop a way to help stop the whipsaw instead of letting yourself get played and I'll work on the pilots on my end who don't understand the power of cooperation.

winglet

I understand that we all work for the lowest bidder. A lot of contracts are going to be up or are being negotiated right now. We can only do what is necessary on our end and hope that everyone else is looking out collectively for the profession instead of just for short term personal gains. As it's been demonstrated with the last several awards for United flying, the cheapest airline does not necessarily mean that it's the most competitive.