You're a wise man +1

I remember when I was in upgrade at Colgan and Phil Trenary came in to talk to our class. He was giving an overview of the regional industry and get got to the point of Mesa.

He mentioned that he guaranteed Mesa would be back, bigger than ever, and Ornstein would be out for blood.

If only I hadn't laughed then...

I'm experienced. A wise man would GTFO of the industry altogether.
:D

My god, in what world are you living??? First, regional airlines don't live in a vacuum. Supply/demand dictates that if someone can make around or near $300k now as a widebody Captain at a major, there had better be at least some sort of carrot at a regional to keep a few experienced people around. If one can go to China and make $150k+ from day one there had better be some incentive to keep people from jumping ship. There is a good deal of competition for qualified pilots finally. If the regionals don't offer an incentive to stay, people won't stay. They do need to retain *some* of their senior Captains, and a reasonable left seat payscale may make, say, a 50yr old Captain who was a career changer (i.e., not a "failed" pilot) think about sticking around, and this is not a bad thing for the airline. Airlines need experienced pilots to retain any sort of culture of safety and professionalism, both of which are required in the 121 environment.

Second, most regionals are flying a great deal of 70+ seat aircraft along with the 50 seaters. Same airspace, same passengers, and same ballpark number of seats as plenty of smaller legacy aircraft from a few years back. The piece of the pie is not, as you say, excessive. The problem is the pie is too small by far. No easy fix, but a few overwhelming No votes recently are a good first step. But perhaps you would not know about voting No and seeking pay and QOL improvements.

For you to get started on some rant about failed pilots and excessive regional left seat pay marks you as either troll or management.

Then call me a failure and a loser because my first choice is RAH. Why?If i make captain i instantly become a lifer. Other regionals are getting 175's. Republic already has 175's. I don't want to go through ground school 5 times and i don't want 5 type ratings. I want to endure the suck only once and then get the seniority to have a decent quality of life. These kids that are obsessed with going to a major especially before even getting to a regional are idiots. Yeah i know i am one to talk because im not in the industry yet. But in all honesty id still rather have SJS than dig ditches. But 60-100k a year fling for a living doesn't sound too bad to me! Before anybody says the whole you don't have the right goals you are whats wrong with the industry blah blah blah. Come on guys, this industry was messed up as it is. It was a bad idea to start regional airlines in the first place and didn't make sense financially. Flame away at my post but thats just how i feel and in America i am at least entitled to my opinion.

Maybe what you don't understand, is that due to the nature of the outsourcing regional model, you probably won't be able to have a career at the regionals. They are built on cheap labor, after you get up the ladder to 10 yrs, you are too expensive. With a senior pilot group, they can't compete with a regional with a newer, cheaper workforce.

Then there is the BS, EVERYTHING is done on the cheap. All the support staff are hired on the cheap. So everyday, you are not only doing your job, but scheduling's, dispatches, payroll, and ramp's. You are a contractor, so your travel privileges aren't as good either.

Then at some point, you and your co-workers get fed up with doing everybody else's job, and that begins or accelerates the demise of the airline. At that point, they try to get labor cost cuts AND they also start their endgame plan--bankruptcy or wind-down. Now you've been there 10 yrs, making decent pay as a captain. What are your options? Ride it out for another couple of years, or start over again somewhere else? That is the way it is currently. Also, you will need 100k+ worth of training, and experience, plus a 4,5,6,7,8... years? before you get to that 60K dollar paycheck.

I can get a 2 yr degree as a technical specialist in operating medical equipment and START at 60K!

I haven't spent a cent on aviation just time that 60k a year is all profit. An yes I know I am very rare.

Well then, this career is a hobby for you. But even if you don't spend any money on training, you still won't be MAKING much money for a while either. Unless you don't need that income, so then I get back to my original statement. I think, however, if you have nothing invested in this career you will be one of the first to become disgruntled by it. That has been my experience with the people I have met.

How do you figure ?

Can anybody provide a source that cites Ornstein is actually a convicted felon? I'm not trolling, just looking for a legitimate source to back up that statement.

I've done a few Google searches and all I've come up with is a few puff pieces by Forbes, about his checkered past as a stockbroker, and his SEC violations and sanctions. But I can't find anything that actually says he received felony convictions.

Because lumping every Pilot out there into one mind thought has done nothing to help the industry. What works for you doesn't necessarily mean it work's for somebody else. I believe the analogy of the big fish in a small pond as opposed to a the small fish in a big pond may be appropriate. Don't speak for someone else until you have walked or jumped in their shoes. It's gotten us nowhere as a whole.

"...the SEC in 1992 upheld a fine and multiyear suspension as a stockbroker–his prior career. The agency cited unauthorized trading, misrepresentation and frustrating investigators. Ornstein’s official disciplinary record printout back then: 21 feet long." --Forbes

He was suspended for something. Some shady dealing in a customer's account according to NASD. Right around stock market crash of 1987.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPag...=182&id=&page=

And fined a whopping $10,000

How does one enter this "career" without spending a cent on aviation?:confused:

Pm me if you really want to know

He did it all through Amway.:D

My OP already said that I read the Forbes article, and that it does not mention anything about a felony conviction. So, it really doesn't answer my question at all.

Well, that would explain it!:)

Thanks for the comments about my retort on the site :) It is SO important that pilots counter the ridiculous comments made by these regional airline CEOs and the RAA.

A few comments about what has been stated on this thread.

First of all, I think it's crazy that anyone should suggest that regional airline Captain should accept lower pay in order to help bring up the pay scales for First Officers. A regional airline Captain is responsible for a multi-million dollar piece of company capital and hundreds of millions of dollars (potentially) of liability if things go pear shaped. SO WHAT if he/she is making six figures? THAT IS WHAT THEY SHOULD BE PAID. One might argue it should be higher. A regional airline Captain shouldn't be asked to take a pay cut just because regional airline First Officers are paid crap wages. The solution is that regional airline management needs to raise First Officer Wages. Period. End of discussion. Not ask a guy/gal who has committed a decade or more of his/her life to subsidize THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS.

What these CEOs have done is bid contracts based upon paying and treating their pilots poorly. Now they're in a bind. Pilots are starting to stand up for themselves, but they want to keep that pilot labor "pie" piece of the income statement pretty much the same in order to keep profits up. That's why there's so much emphasis on pilot cost shifting- paying Captains less and using that money to pay First Officers more. If they could do that, their problems disappear in the short term, which is all they care about- the short term. They want someone else (Captains) to pay for their problem, instead of doing the right thing- paying a living wage to entry level pilots. Don't buy into that ridiculousness that someone else should pay for these CEOs to simply do the right thing and recognize market forces.

The "he-he" was really laughing at Ornstein. So out of touch it's laughable. And the problem is that little RAA coven is nothing but an echo chamber. They'll all complain how horrible the 1,500/1,250/1,000/750 hour rule is, how terrible those greedy unions are, how naughty pilots are for voting down raises, etc., etc., without even addressing the real issue.

I agree the 1,500/1,250/1,000/750 hour rule will change someday, and I think that's why regional airline CEOs are so vocal right now. They want the world to know that THEY are the victims. Greedy union pilots are shooting down pay raises. Greedy Captains are taking all the money for themselves so they can't pay their First Officers a living wage. Communities are losing air service because of the 1,500 hour rule. Woe is me, I have to shrink my company because my pilots just rejected a huge pay increase. Why can't we have 250 hr. pilots like they do in other countries, etc., etc.

They want to put pressure on the FAA and the government to change this rule, so they do all of the above, and more, to swing government and public opinion. It's up to us to get the REAL truth out there.

No, you are not a loser. If you WANTED to be a RAH lifer from the get-go, then you are exempt. I simply said that I myself will have a failed career if I never leave(which very well could be the case) because of my initial goals.
On a separate note, 60-100k sounds good on paper, but in reality it's not that much once you start having kids. I have made north of 90k the last three years and boy does it go quick!

Probably not true. The rumor that BB and WH did time together is also unsubstantiated and has never been proven. I understand that people don't like these boys, but one is not supposed to tell lies about others.

Yep, exactly.

Someone else said stop the whining to each on APC. OK, I get that. But I would say some of us are taking the fight to the next step; contacting our Congressmen, ALPA reps, etc. We may also take action to counter this upper management BS onslaught; we can write about the realities of the industry through our own websites, www.thetruthaboutheprofession.weebly.com, or in writing comments to these internet articles. APC *can* be a good place of communication and coordination.

Just think about this;
Regionals pilots are what management admits they cannot find. However, it was regional pilots who were given contracts with concessionary language/paltry pay raises, or worse, they were *ordered* to take concessions or else be Comair-ed. That is insane, and management is actively, vocally, and at least somewhat successfully spinning this in their favor!!

Congressman Sam Graves seems to be eating this up by the way...Congressman Sam Graves : Contact Sam You have to be in his district to email him, but you can snail mail him, and I've heard snail mail has more impact so to speak than email...

Hint, hint.

One of my friends used to work for a Congressman. Her advice? Email can be group deleted when they see a subject they don't care about or sent to a spam folder. Someone has to physically open the envelopes and read at least part of the letter before throwing it away. In the latter, at least someone is reading it.

APC is only for complaining. Much of what people say here would never be repeated to someones face.

You want to make some noise? Use your free travel benefits and fly to where the McDonalds employees are picketing for $15/hour pay. You should join them and picket in uniform as it looks likely they are going to succeed. You will get the media attention, it would be better than a full page ad in the news paper.

After reading that article it's clear that Congress probably had JO in mind specifically when they passed these new regulations. :-)

While there are a few airlines in Europe that have pay to fly programs, there is some backlash resulting and I'm sure it will eventually go away.

Mesa CEO blames Captains, unions for low pay
 

Where is Mesa ALPA's press response to JO's cheap ass garbage mouth?

In Norway or in Dubai.

JO's just ****ed because it's cutting into his San Juan pilot mill program that he was able fill the cheap seat from with the 250 hr wonders.